*Official* Australia tour of New Zealand Feb-Mar 2024

[SteveNZ]

I got the feeling Ross himself would have carried on for as long as he wanted to, though it was apparent soon after the WTC final that he well was past it (see: India tour 2021), and he’s probably a bit sore about it ending with those Bangladesh tests (and Netherlands ODIs). He’s coming from that perspective I suppose.

Add to that Guptill’s immature response on being dropped from the starting XI, it’s an unnecessary narrative. All of them are among the best to turn out for NZ, but if anything the selectors have been generous with how long they were willing to persist with them when they were clearly past their best.

Yeah I completely agree. Again, I don't blame them and I see the mentality - if you're someone who will just happily sling your hook and wholeheartedly concur with being dropped near the end, you probably didn't have the necessary belief to start off with.

I guess that's the issue with coaches who aren't the numero uno in the room. Someone like a Wayne Bennett in the NRL, he can drop (and does) anyone he wants, move on the super-ist of superstars because he's the big cheese, the power lies with him. Gary Stead can't. It seems like he did that in Australia 2019-20 with Southee, and learned it wasn't a move for survival. So now you've got the power lying with Southee, and he doesn't want his mates moved on. He still wants Boult to be considered, he doesn't have a moral compass on his mate Scott K, he's close to Wagner, he's not professional enough as a leader to see the best interests of the team going forward. And Stead would find it hard to challenge this power faction, he just doesn't have the status or the man management skills.

 

[NZTailender]

It is all really intriguing. My reaction is that how the hell could anyone force someone to retire? I don't think that happens ever, that a sporting coach tells a player they should retire. You don't need to - you just say we don't see you in our plans right now. That's not telling you to retire, you're welcome to go back to ND and find something. So the tough conversation, I truly don't think that was 'you should retire' - maybe it's 'we're not going to pick you and there are people ahead of you now'

I mean isn't that retirement by default? "You're turning 38 soon, you're down on pace and you're less effective with the ball. We're moving on and we'll never select you for international duties again, even if we have injuries."

Wagner could then feel he's essentially forced into international retirement when he doesn't want to go. But it's not like there's strong armed tactics from management of "retire, or else".

 

[SteveNZ]

I mean isn't that retirement by default? "You're turning 38 soon, you're down on pace and you're less effective with the ball. We're moving on and we'll never select you for international duties again, even if we have injuries."

Wagner could then feel he's essentially forced into international retirement when he doesn't want to go. But it's not like there's strong armed tactics from management of "retire, or else".

But how I don't understand it, is that he was picked for the SA series last month, and he was in the squad for Wellington. Unless those are ceremonial selections - which have no place in international cricket, ever, for mine - that suggests he's close to the XI. They still want him in the squad to do a job if required. I can't see how you're forced into retirement if you're in a squad. If Stead said he'd never select him again, then why the **** was he in the squad for the Basin? What changed? What was said? If O'Rourke was injured in warm-ups, Wagner should have played given they stated they wanted four seamers.

If Wagner hadn't been in the SA squad/for the Basin, I'd totally get it. And I'd back Stead in, as I think Wags was cooked, too. But he kept picking him in squads. He played him in Hamilton.

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

It does suggest that thinking changed as a result of the Hamilton match - which might have been Wagner’s hand signals. It does feel like something has gone on behind the scenes.

 

[NZTailender]

But how I don't understand it, is that he was picked for the SA series last month, and he was in the squad for Wellington. Unless those are ceremonial selections - which have no place in international cricket, ever, for mine - that suggests he's close to the XI. They still want him in the squad to do a job if required. I can't see how you're forced into retirement if you're in a squad. If Stead said he'd never select him again, then why the **** was he in the squad for the Basin? What changed? What was said? If O'Rourke was injured in warm-ups, Wagner should have played given they stated they wanted four seamers.

If Wagner hadn't been in the SA squad/for the Basin, I'd totally get it. And I'd back Stead in, as I think Wags was cooked, too. But he kept picking him in squads. He played him in Hamilton.

Gary Stead and Joe Root have a lot in common - many unanswered questions

 

[straw man]

This whole thing is very unnecessary and mildly self destructive, in the face of some very obvious facts. e.g.
Wagner has been less effective for 18 months plus. He isn't going to magically rediscover that extra zip. He was never going to let go of his NZ spot easily, that's not his personality (bless his angry soul). Stead and selectors have not acted quickly on this, but they have eventually acted. You'd hope they framed it as "we are promoting young bowler x/y/z", not "we're not selecting you full stop", but you never know. Now people who haven't followed NZ cricket closely the last couple of years are affecting surprise and shock at Wagner's omission. Not surprising from Australia's cricket media, a bit more surprising from Ross Taylor and Stuff journalists. It's hard to see how they could come to that conclusion, except by not watching Wagner bowl the last couple of seasons.

Stead actually ends up on the forward-thinking and progressive side of this debate ffs.

It's unnecessary noise, hope it's forgotten when the next test starts.

 

[Starfighter]

There seems to be a bit of the modern attitude that long standing players are undroppable and should only exit the team on their own terms about this.

 

[Immenso]

Dropped
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p
e
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Forced Retirement
o
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d
...

 

[thierry henry]

I got the feeling Ross himself would have carried on for as long as he wanted to, though it was apparent soon after the WTC final that he well was past it (see: India tour 2021), and he’s probably a bit sore about it ending with those Bangladesh tests (and Netherlands ODIs). He’s coming from that perspective I suppose.

Exactly. If you read Ross's book, he was still a bit resentful about feeling like he was de facto "forced to retire", in the same way as Wags. I've never got any sense from Ross that he accepted he had declined even though it was pretty obvious. He was also resentful about being dropped from T20Is in 2021. I think he's just the kind of stubborn, competitive guy who will be 80 and deep down will still think he could've played on and found ways to be better than the guys he was competing with.

It's almost an exact parallel with the Wagner situation really. They were the same age almost to the day (their retirement season ending the month they turned 38). It was brutally obvious to anyone who had watched them that their physical attributes had waned in the last 2 years or so of their careers and it was time to move on. Taylor is looking at a great mate and teammate reliving what he did 2 years ago and basically repeating what he would've said about himself.

 

[TheBrand]

Off to see The Grade Cricketer's show tonight in Christchurch, hopefully it's not the highlight of the week

 

[_Ed_]

Stuff

www.stuff.co.nz

Happy for Sears and I hope he goes well.

Meanwhile:

Southee said no decision had been made between Scott Kuggeleijn and Mitchell Santner for the final place in the side.

FFS.

 

[Athlai]

FFS.

Well they keep saying no and Kuggeleijn keeps saying yes so I guess no decision has been made.

 

[Bahnz]

Good luck to Sears. Pity his FC form has been pretty poor this season, but will be exciting to get a look at him in a bona fide test match. Fingers-crossed he guns it and we get one step closer to securing the long-term future of the bowling attack.

 

[Athlai]

Good luck to Sears. Pity his FC form has been pretty poor this season, but will exciting to get a look at him in a bona fide test match. Fingers-crossed he guns it and we get one step closer to securing the long-term future of the bowling attack.

One of those guys that has the tools so when he gets it together could really be a weapon. I like it personally.

 

[SteveNZ]

Very typical of us to pick a guy like Sears at a time when he's averaged 38 this season in the PS and didn't tour with NZ A.

 

[SteveNZ]

There seems to be a bit of the modern attitude that long standing players are undroppable and should only exit the team on their own terms about this.

Yep, absolutely. I think, to be honest, that lies in the fact that most international coaches don't have the standing they used to. The big ego coaches (Baz aside) are in the IPL. It's a lot harder to drop superstars when you are Gary Stead - the power lies with the players and it's probably better for your career to let them go on too long.

 

[TheBrand]

Cricket.com.au with a not so subtle dig at SP

 

[King Kane]

No Conway again and one of our few shining lights from the first test O'Rourke out injured now.

I still think we are capable of beating the Aussies but it makes it tough when once again we won't have our best team while they have their best team.

I hope we at least pick Santner for this test instead of Kuggeleijn, he isn't good enough to be worth all the sh*t we cop for picking him.

 

[anonymouskefe]

Just hoping Sears is test bowling reading not sure the last time hes bowled a in a fc match. Hopefully he can maintain his pace although might be challenging with an action like his. He needs pace to stay threatening if that goes not sure what else he has in his skillset but good luck to him.

 

[SteveNZ]

Just hoping Sears is test bowling reading not sure the last time hes bowled a in a fc match. Hopefully he can maintain his pace although might be challenging with an action like his. He needs pace to stay threatening if that goes not sure what else he has in his skillset but good luck to him.

November