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***Official Australia in South Africa***

Goughy

Hall of Fame Member
Beleg said:
Uh-huh. Like I said, spade a spade... I don't take potshots. Your posts fit the defination of a snob to the T.
What 'cos I prefer test cricket. Dude, you're thowing potshots around like there is no tomorrow


Beleg said:
Then perhaps you should refrain from talking about things you apparantly have no idea of.
What has that got to do with the significance of ODIs. Just because people cant afford the time or the money to do something doesn't mean it loses any value. And just because I don't have first hand knowledge of the urban Pakistani streets means I can't talk about cricket. Wow, Really. Thats a BS arguement just so you think you are the fountain of all cricketing knowledge


Beleg said:
I am glad you are able to speak on behalf of all the 'players' of the world. :)
Well there are a lot fewer players than fans and you seem happy to feel you are the mouthpiece for all of them.

Beleg said:
Your failure to acknowledge the truth when it is staring you in your face is very telling.
I have laid down my points in front of you. You have been unable to come up with an on-topic response, turning to mindless rhetoric instead. The above statement is a classic example of why we use the phrase 'lack of prespective.'
"Truth"? WTF? You have not said anything of the sort and using the word truth is dangerous when applying it to you're own argument, especially because I don't quite know what your argument is. You just seem to have decided to argue without really clarifying you position. Is it that ODI's carry a great deal of significance, that ODI's and Tests are equal in importance, that Test cricket is irrelevant, if you don't come from Pakistan you are not qualified to comment on cricket? Which is it? Please educate me to what the "truth" really is.

You have laid your points down but they are not very good.

As for mindless rhetoric....it was an illustration of the fact that entertainment and popularity does not equate to significance and importance. If you can't figure that out then fair enough.

Peace,out.
Im not not getting embroiled in an argument that will go on all night.
 
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Beleg

International Regular
Actually most days of test cricket are generally sold out in England but thats not my point here.
Kudos to you for including the operative 'most' here.

ODIs are entertainment and for that they are popular.
I agree.


However, just because something is popular doesn't mean it has depth, meaning or significance.
Quite true, as is viceversa. The thing about 'depth' is that it is highly subjective critertion. I can readily accept that you find ODI's to be out of depth, but trying to make it seem that this sort of reaction is a universal phenomenon is both wrong and untrue.

Their significance lies in their entertainment value and the bucketload of cash they provide to the cricket-boards and players. You just have to look at people who come to the ODI's dressed up in fancy constumes and with their faces painted the colours of their teams to see whether or not ODI's have any meaning in their minds.

Look at the popularity of Kelly Clarkson, Backstreet Boys, Girls Aloud. Pop Music so called because its popular. Does that mean they are more important musically than bands with depth and purpose.
Whilst I am not a fan of all the bands/singers mentioned above, I know many people who feel really deeply about their stuff. Whilst you and I may consider them crap and deviod of any merits whatsoever, those people have obviously discovered some sort of empathy and connection in their tunes. I am just saying that we have to respect that.


Robert Ludlam, Wilbur Smith sell boatloads of books. Why because they are entertaing not because they hold literary merit.
Again, literary merit too is subjective. It's parameter's are arbitary, based on gut instinct and intuition. Does Tolkien hold any merit? Half of the 'critics' and 'experts' in the world seem to think so whilst the other half negate it vehemently. The jury is still out. On the other hand, readers the world over have embraced his books openheartedly and his effects on popular culture and individuals, not to mention literature itself, are visible for all to see.

Perhaps the literary merit of Robert Ludlam and Wilbur Smith lies in the fact that they are able to tell complling stories?

My opinions concerning literature usually don't sit too well with literary snobs though - this is a general observation and not aimed at you, by the way.

American Idol got 3 times the viewers the Winter Olympics did. Watching people embarass themselves in auditions and seeing people compete that you wouldn't walk down the street to listen to is more popular than watching a countryman/woman winning Olympic gold.
While this isn't related to the topic at all, not all people are raging patriots. In any case, I do not see how the above example compares to the situation between test and ODI cricket.

Popularity = Profit not meaning or significance.
The crux of the matter, and here's where I think you are wrong. Quality (arbitary at that) over quanity doesn't often win in real life.

Why? because people want lighthearted entertainment. It doesn't mean there is anything important going on.
I have never watched Eastenders but why do you think desiring entertainment is wrong? After all, everything we do is related in one way or the other with the desire to satify ourselves. Folks just find different outlets of doing so.

I never said ODIs were not entertaing, I said they were meaningless. They are as meaningfull as a Kelly Clarkson CD or a Bernard Cornwell book.
I loved the Winter King! It's the best Arthur myth retelling ever, IMO - after Malory that is.
 

Beleg

International Regular
What has that got to do with the significance of ODIs. Just because people cant afford the time or the money to do something doesn't mean it loses any value. And just because I don't have first hand knowledge of the urban Pakistani streets means I can't talk about cricket. Wow, Really. Thats a BS arguement just so you think you are the fountain of all cricketing knowledge.
We aren't talking about the value of 'test cricket' here, though. The discussion stemmed from you calling ODI cricket 'meaningless', ergo it's focused around ODI's. I don't use how the general value of tests comes into equation here. But you seem to be clutching at just about every single sentence you can get your hands on to manipulate.

If you want to talk about the importance of ODI's, their meaningless(full)ness and the reason behind the deteroration of test match audience and rise of other modes then one needs to have a basic understanding of the socio-economical structures of a country. These are the factors which shape the mindset of masses, upon whose whim, all cricket eventually depends on.

Also, way to twist my words. You seem to be doing a mighty fine job of that.

Dude, you're thowing potshots around like there is no tomorrow.
I am?

You mean like these?

Goughy said:
If I'm a snob you are Philistine but I really don't want to get into name calling. I think you might be better at it.
Well there are a lot fewer players than fans and you seem happy to feel you are the mouthpiece for all of them.
That's the best you could come up with? When did I say I was representing all the fans in the world? Like I have mentioned previously, I realize people can prefer test cricket, which is well and good and down to personal choice (I myself am test cricket fan more then anything else) - however to say ODI's is meaningless is rubbish. (but I am repeating myself - it's all there if anyone cares to read)

"Truth"? WTF? You have not said anything of the sort and using the word truth is dangerous when applying it to you're own argument. (Heres hoping I've not used the term somewhere else). It is an ignorant thing to do.
No, using the word 'truth' in relation to 'facts' is very valid. Facts support that in Pakistan in particular, support for test cricket is plummeting, even in face of drastic initiative's offered by the PCB. The ticket sales for tests compared with ODI's provide a quantifiable measurement of these 'facts'. From this I have extrapolated the reasons behind the phenomenon, which inevitably lead back to economic scenario's.

From what I have seen of test cricket in other countries, specially Sri Lanka and WI, test cricket seems to be on a decline there as well.

As for mindless rhetoric....it was an illustration of the fact that entertainment and popularity does not equate to significance and importance. If you can't figure that out then fair enough.
Yup, popular culture is oh-so-whacky. God forbid folks who enjoy it have some sort of reason/justification for doing so. Anyone who doesn't like Wagner and Joyce deserves capital punishment!


Im not not getting embroiled in an argument that will go on all night.
Oh sure, thanks for your input in any case, even if I think you are dead wrong. :)
 

steds

Hall of Fame Member
Goughy said:
I never said ODIs were not entertaing, I said they were meaningless. They are as meaningfull as a Kelly Clarkson CD or a Bernard Cornwell book.
Hey, I like Bernard Cornwell.
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
howardj said:
After our regrettable ODI performance, I'd like to make the following changes to the squad:

Cosgrove for Martyn
Jacques for Katich
Tait for Lewis
McGrath for Johnson

I also think Hogg (if Warnie is not coming back) should not be discarded the way he was for the last two games.
1. Not yet i would still have Martyn in their at least until the WC, since i believe he still can offer something to the OD team

2. well its it obvious, but Katich in his own right has done well since the VB series

3. Dalm right

4. Obviously:happy:
 

steds

Hall of Fame Member
On the subject of change, I also would like to make one.

A northerner with some sense of patriotism for aussie.
 

luckyeddie

Cricket Web Staff Member
Beleg said:
The decline of test cricket audience is a well documented fact, really. Your average working joe in third world countries cannot even afford to follow test cricket. Regardless of any stylistic reasons, it just isn't practical - takes up too much time. Investing thirty hours of your life for a game which isn't even guranteed to have a closure? Screw that. Specially when there is an alternative available; a faster, more cost and time effective mode of cricket. You need to open your eyes to the fact that test cricket is an acquired taste and there is nothing innately superior about it.
Just because the average test match in Pakistan plays out to about 12 people (give or take the odd 10000 for the 15 minutes that Shahid Afridi is at the crease) doesn't mean that we're all Philistines with the attention span of the average goldfish.
 

ramu

Cricket Spectator
:laugh:
luckyeddie said:
Just because the average test match in Pakistan plays out to about 12 people (give or take the odd 10000 for the 15 minutes that Shahid Afridi is at the crease) doesn't mean that we're all Philistines with the attention span of the average goldfish.



Australia is no more :laugh: 8-)
 

Goughy

Hall of Fame Member
steds said:
Hey, I like Bernard Cornwell.
Hey, so do I. The new Sharpe book he is writing and the new Sharpe film that is in production has a lot to do with making money. But I will buy both.

I included him in the lists as I wanted to show that I can enjoy and really like something without suddenly thinking that it is something it isn't. Its simple, formulaic, predictable but when Sharpe gets the girl and wins the fight and the bad guy is vanguished its fun to read.

Cornwell will never go down in history as one of the world great authors, but I love his work and the fact you can read a book in a day.
 

bigstu

Cricket Spectator
TazzX said:
Not something I would put past Ponting todo when times get tuff :) It would be like the 1981 underarm saga at the MCG, Aus capable of bad sportmanship then, more than likely capable of it now.

:cool:
1981??????? It's been 25 years, it's time to get over it.

I can't believe you have the nerve to accuse someone of poor sportsmanship. Check out these lovely posts........

but I wasn't dumb enough to turn the TV off and think *No way can they score that* ... that is what I refer to as complete arrogance. But it came back and bit you dingo lovers in the ***

Im p1ssing myself :laugh: read from about 68 onwards and the comments by some of you Aussies is just :laugh:

How pathetic is this WIndies team :| I don't think I have ever watched a Test thats been more boring than this :|


I bet Gilly and McGrath is chasing wallabies for a lil bit of love and now not able to find their way back to the stadium ...

the kiwi's don't really bother with the crap most Aussies have to say. Its always blah this we are hard done by or cry here and there

Lee = Most hated cricketer in the world Im sure.

(on Ponting) when things don't go his way he throws his toys out of the cot and cries like baby.
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
well i think its time to turn attention to the tests. Well obviously since SA chased down that huge target successfully it will give them huge confidence going into the tests. But Australia at least in the tesst will have some fresh & proper bowlers in Kasper, Tait & MacGill & Warne so the bowling attack has a MUCH better look, along with the return of veteran opening pair.

Looking back at what happened in Australia i strongly believe Australia have what it takes to beat SA in the test series. Lee hopefully should be progressing from his improvements in the just concluded Australian summer even though he had a disappointing OD series, if he bowls well it will be though for SA. The Warne/MacGill combination should be effective, Kasper will bring his experinece & Tait well he could really surprise SA i feel. So i'm looking foward to the 1st test off what is going to be a really hard fought test series & predicatably this XI will line-up will be on the park thursday morning:

Langer
Hayden
Ponting
Martyn
Hussey
Symonds
Gilchrist
Warne
Lee
Kasprowicz
Tait or MacGill - depending on the pitch
 

FaaipDeOiad

Hall of Fame Member
bigstu said:
Lee = Most hated cricketer in the world Im sure.
Umm. Lee is pretty much universally respected, outside of New Zealand. There are far less popular players within the Australian team alone.
 

bigstu

Cricket Spectator
FaaipDeOiad said:
Umm. Lee is pretty much universally respected, outside of New Zealand. There are far less popular players within the Australian team alone.
That was not posted by myself. I was quoting the ridiculous things said by tazzx, who then had the audacity to claim Aussies were bad sports. He's still talking about something that happened in 1981 probably before he was even born.
 

Dasa

International Vice-Captain
Nnanden said:
What is your combined team for the series? Mine`ll be up in a sec.
Here's mine, a bit late though. Done pretty much only on stats:
Smith - 244 @ 61.00
Katich - 192 @ 38.40
Ponting - 233 @ 77.67
Gibbs - 258 @ 51.60
Symonds - 103 @ 103.00
Hussey - 200 @ 40.00
Boucher - 120 @ 30.00
Pollock - 160 @ 80.00, 5 @ 19.80 - 3.09rpo
Hogg - 19 @ 19.50, 3 @ 30.00 - 4.74rpo
Ntini - 2 @ ~, 11 @ 22.73 - 5.40rpo
Bracken - 33 @ 11.00, 9 @ 23.89 - 4.65rpo
 

FaaipDeOiad

Hall of Fame Member
bigstu said:
That was not posted by myself. I was quoting the ridiculous things said by tazzx, who then had the audacity to claim Aussies were bad sports. He's still talking about something that happened in 1981 probably before he was even born.
Sorry then.
 

bigstu

Cricket Spectator
I actually like Brett Lee as a person/bowler I just wish he was more consistent in his line & length & stopped trying to be the fastest ever. McGrath & Pollock have become better bowlers later in life when their pace has gone. It always scares me when he has the ball for the last over.
 

howardj

International Coach
Dasa said:
Here's mine, a bit late though. Done pretty much only on stats:
Smith - 244 @ 61.00
Katich - 192 @ 38.40
Ponting - 233 @ 77.67
Gibbs - 258 @ 51.60
Symonds - 103 @ 103.00
Hussey - 200 @ 40.00
Boucher - 120 @ 30.00
Pollock - 160 @ 80.00, 5 @ 19.80 - 3.09rpo
Hogg - 19 @ 19.50, 3 @ 30.00 - 4.74rpo
Ntini - 2 @ ~, 11 @ 22.73 - 5.40rpo
Bracken - 33 @ 11.00, 9 @ 23.89 - 4.65rpo
Pointless putting the batting stats up, unless you're going to include the strike rates. For instance, Katich's stats (above) are not a true reflection of his contribution. With a strike rate of 62, I think he did Australia more harm than good in this series. That strike rate is just not good enough when you're spending longer at the crease than any other batsman. Even the other day, when he posted his highest strike rate (100), it was still decidedly less than the other guys who also made a 50+ score in the match.
 

Dasa

International Vice-Captain
howardj said:
Pointless putting the batting stats up, unless you're going to include the strike rates. For instance, Katich's stats (above) are not a true reflection of his contribution. With a strike rate of 62, I think he did Australia more harm than good in this series. That strike rate is just not good enough when you're spending longer at the crease than any other batsman. Even the other day, when he posted his highest strike rate (100), it was still decidedly less than the other guys who also made a 50+ score in the match.
Yeah I'm aware of Katich's poor strike rate, but none of the other openers (bar Smith) did anything. Dippenaar's strike rate was only 64 and his average was 31.80 while Gilchrist averaged only 28, so Katich is only in there because the other opening batsmen did so poorly. With the other batsmen, strike rate isn't an issue as they all scored at, or close to a run a ball.
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
Pedro Delgado said:
Ruddy Norah! It was just a meaningless ODI man. If they win the test series yeah, jump from the roof tops.
IT is not about the tests. It was just tough to see them lose ODIs against Australia and other sides after being in good positions. Plus, a series decider against the #1 side in the world with the WC around a year or so away..........nah, it is not so meaningless for me. :)
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
Pedro Delgado said:
By that rationale, Australia drawing the one dayers was a reasonably successful Ashes tour then.
Tests are more important and are tougher for players than ODIs. BUt that doesn't mean ODIs aren't important at all, esp. a year before the WC.
 

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