***Official: Australia in South Africa 2016 T20I Series***

[OverratedSanity]

Polite way of saying they are chokers.

Which they are.

Are we allowed to say this?

Keenly await a rant from someone saying other teams choke too.

 

[Black_Warrior]

It was the same over eagerness to get to the ball that cost them the semi finals against NZ. They almost play with too much passion, to the point where they can't stay calm anymore.

Yes but that's not quite why they lost this game though. That's why Australia won in the end yes...but Australia were never supposed to be in the game after 40/3 chasing 200. It's the bowling that cost them this game

 

[Gob]

Yes but that's not quite why they lost this game though. That's why Australia won in the end yes...but Australia were never supposed to be in the game after 40/3 chasing 200. It's the bowling that cost them this game

Never supposed to win was pushing it a bit. I Thought Warner and Maxwell batted really well

 

[Black_Warrior]

Never supposed to win was pushing it a bit. I Thought Warner and Maxwell batted really well

Absolutley..not taking anything away. What I am saying though is, 40/3 chasing 200, you have to **** it up as a bowling unit to lose it from there and South Africa did that.

The number of full tosses, no balls, wides for example.

 

[Gob]

Well given the pitch and the short boundaries, I wouldn't put it out of reach of the chasing team to chase anything when the two blokes in the middle have the reputations of Maxwell and Warner. Pretty much the case if SA were batting and DeVilliers was out there at the same situation

Bowling was poor yeah. Especially towards the end

 

[Stefan9]

204 you cannot ask for more

Blame the captain, fielding and bowling

On the most grounds yes, not this one. 231 was chased here when gayle went crazy in a t20 game,SA has chased 208 here. 434 was chased here in a 50 over game. So its quite doable if the batting side keep their head. Warner and Maxwell played well, wise & tahir had an off day. But SA missed 10-15 runs when they send in behardien who only pushed a few singles before getting out ahead of wiese/morris.

Are we allowed to say this?

Keenly await a rant from someone saying other teams choke too.

Strange how that word didn't come out when england had some horrendous performance in the t20's vs us or aus losing the 1st game from us being 75/5...

 

[theegyptian]

Personally I don't really like throwing the choke word around at anything but world tournaments. A jerkoff game today in a meaningless series or some random odi series in a 4 year cycle. There really isn't much pressure on them.

Sure they faltered a bit today as two very good players put them under pressure - but it was hardly a 'omg we're in a world cup quarter final, what do we do' pressure.


SA no doubt are the kings of it but I really wouldn't throw it around in meaningless games like today - unless your saying that any time two relatively even teams player - the loser by default is choking.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Strange how that word didn't come out when england had some horrendous performance in the t20's vs us or aus losing the 1st game from us being 75/5...

Pretty sure it did.

Plenty of other teams get called chokers when they choke too, I just find it hilarious that when SA are called it, it's so much more of a touchy thing. It's not really a big deal to say so and so team choked imo. It happens.

 

[Jono]

Personally I don't really like throwing the choke word around at anything but world tournaments. A jerkoff game today in a meaningless series or some random odi series in a 4 year cycle. There really isn't much pressure on them. .

Just because its meaningless to us doesn't mean they don't care. They clearly did.

The Asia Cup is seen as a glorified warm-up tournament by most non-Bangladeshi fans, but Sami still choked vs. Bangladesh when bowling in the 19th over. There is pressure in every international match to an extent, depending on the individual player and how much they care.

Morris felt the pressure today. Behardien absolutely felt the pressure on his throw.

 

[Niall]

On the most grounds yes, not this one. 231 was chased here when gayle went crazy in a t20 game...

2nd T20I: South Africa v West Indies at Johannesburg, Jan 11, 2015 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo

Oh look another high scoring game where Behardiens "hitting" was crucial.

If you forget world cup games which are obviously more important, that "knock" from Behardien is one of the worst international t20 innings ever.

If this idiot isn't going to bowl then why is he in the bloody side , his fielding isn't up to much either.

 

[Stefan9]

2nd T20I: South Africa v West Indies at Johannesburg, Jan 11, 2015 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo

Oh look another high scoring game where Behardiens "hitting" was crucial.

If you forget world cup games which are obviously more important, that "knock" from Behardien is one of the worst international t20 innings ever.

If this idiot isn't going to bowl then why is he in the bloody side , his fielding isn't up to much either.

Guess they decided as rossouw hadn't done much for a few games to give him a chance. Hopefully rossouw is back in for the next game and the world cup.

 

[theegyptian]

Just because its meaningless to us doesn't mean they don't care. They clearly did.

The Asia Cup is seen as a glorified warm-up tournament by most non-Bangladeshi fans, but Sami still choked vs. Bangladesh when bowling in the 19th over. There is pressure in every international match to an extent, depending on the individual player and how much they care.

Morris felt the pressure today. Behardien absolutely felt the pressure on his throw.

They care. Of cause they care. They're presumably all immense competitors to make it as far as they have in international sport. And there is always pressure. And I care when I watch England in every match (although obviously to different degrees).

I suppose there are differing degrees of choke (and pressure). I personally don't really like throwing around the term in games that will be forgotten by next week- but sure I guess it falls under the definition.

Does every moment that someone underperforms for an instant when under some kind of pressure become a choke? If so who hasn't choked?

Sami, Morris, Berhadien. None of them are proven international cricketers. They are in and out of the team. Maybe they felt the pressure more than others, maybe they just aren't as good as others (and maybe that comes from not dealing with pressure..)

I guess I don't really like the term and the connotations it has (at least when thrown at individual players in a team sport)- and think it's used a little too liberally.

 

[Furball]

Regardless of whether the game has pretty much nothing meaningful riding on it or it's a World Cup final, it's not a good sign if your team falls to pieces under pressure.

 

[Black_Warrior]

The problem with South Africa and choking is that it gets thrown around every time they lose a game as the one and only reason. Not saying Jono did that here but a lot of discussions tend to go down that path.

What this does is, the real problems that South Africa might have at various times during those losses is never really considered.

South Africa might have done all of those things during the semi final, but there were a lot of other problems with that ODI side before and throughout that tournament. Most people tend to think that South Africa is this perfect team that only loses because they did something stupid in the knockout. That's not how it works.

You don't fail to chase 230 against Pakistan if you are a great team. You don't lose by 130 runs chasing 300 against India if you are a great team. You don't lose 1-4 in Australia a few months earlier if you are a great team. I don't necessary believe they lost yesterday because of choking, although they might have choked a bit while fielding when the match got tight, but I can see that as a human thing to do at that point.

They lost because they don't have very good LO/T20 bowlers apart from Rabada and Tahir (who also had a bad game). Steyn is okay but coming back after a gap meant his control wasn't hundred percent and he bowled a lot of full tosses instead of yorkers in the end.

Morris and Weise bowled a lot of tripe (not just boundary balls but no balls and wides). They didn't bowl that way because they 'choked'. They bowled that way because they might be having a bad game, or they might not be very good.

 

[OverratedSanity]

They care. Of cause they care. They're presumably all immense competitors to make it as far as they have in international sport. And there is always pressure. And I care when I watch England in every match (although obviously to different degrees).

I suppose there are differing degrees of choke (and pressure). I personally don't really like throwing around the term in games that will be forgotten by next week- but sure I guess it falls under the definition.

Does every moment that someone underperforms for an instant when under some kind of pressure become a choke? If so who hasn't choked?

Sami, Morris, Berhadien. None of them are proven international cricketers. They are in and out of the team. Maybe they felt the pressure more than others, maybe they just aren't as good as others (and maybe that comes from not dealing with pressure..)

I guess I don't really like the term and the connotations it has (at least when thrown at individual players in a team sport)- and think it's used a little too liberally.

The problem with South Africa and choking is that it gets thrown around every time they lose a game as the one and only reason. Not saying Jono did that here but a lot of discussions tend to go down that path.

What this does is, the real problems that South Africa might have at various times during those losses is never really considered.

South Africa might have done all of those things during the semi final, but there were a lot of other problems with that ODI side before and throughout that tournament. Most people tend to think that South Africa is this perfect team that only loses because they did something stupid in the knockout. That's not how it works.

You don't fail to chase 230 against Pakistan if you are a great team. You don't lose by 130 runs chasing 300 against India if you are a great team. You don't lose 1-4 in Australia a few months earlier if you are a great team. I don't necessary believe they lost yesterday because of choking, although they might have choked a bit while fielding when the match got tight, but I can see that as a human thing to do at that point.

They lost because they don't have very good LO/T20 bowlers apart from Rabada and Tahir (who also had a bad game). Steyn is okay but coming back after a gap meant his control wasn't hundred percent and he bowled a lot of full tosses instead of yorkers in the end.

Morris and Weise bowled a lot of tripe (not just boundary balls but no balls and wides). They didn't bowl that way because they 'choked'. They bowled that way because they might be having a bad game, or they might not be very good.

It's bullshit though. India have choked plenty recently too. No one gets annoyed when they get called chokers when they deserve it. But when SA get called that word, suddenly people start saying stuff like what you two are saying (ie) other teams choke too, there were other factors contributing to SA's loss as well. Well, yeah, no ****, of course other teams choke too. And I don't agree that the other factors that led to SA's loss weren't considered. Most of the thread has been discussing how poor SA's bowling was at the end, and those atrocious wides and full tosses. It has not been the sole point of discussion here, and ironically only became the focus when other people felt the need to point out that it wasn't the main reason SA lost.

And I don't see why the word itself presumably carries such a negative connotation at all.

 

[Black_Warrior]

I think we are referring to two different things here. When I am talking about choking being seen as a reason for SA's performances, I am not just referring to pages 13-15 of this thread discussing yesterday's game. I was referring to the larger discussion around South Africa's losses in knockout games and that includes but not restricted to CW, Cricinfo, comments sections, online discussions, match analysis, commentators, articles etc etc.

My argument wasn't about every one else chokes. The 99 semi final was a choke that other teams like Australia or India won't do. My argument was that after that semi final loss in 2015, the fact that Steyn and Philander are average LO bowlers was never quite discussed (not talking about you here, I don't know what you discussed or didn't discuss) but referring to the larger discussion here. No they lost because they choked.

When they lost 2011 QF, they choked. The fact that they are a horrible chasing side, that has a record second only to Pakistan (yes worse than Bangladesh) no one seemed to even know about. That's an absolutely shockingly horrible chasing record. Yet I have rarely seen that get discussed on CW or the post match analysis. These are the kind of instances I am referring to here.

Yes they have chased against England in the recent series 3 times successfully and that's great. But they are gonna have to maintain that kind of standard consistently for a while otherwise it will be a repeat of 2015 WC where they lose the toss in their two major games and the result is decided there.

 

[OverratedSanity]

2nd T20I: South Africa v West Indies at Johannesburg, Jan 11, 2015 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo

Oh look another high scoring game where Behardiens "hitting" was crucial.

If you forget world cup games which are obviously more important, that "knock" from Behardien is one of the worst international t20 innings ever.

If this idiot isn't going to bowl then why is he in the bloody side , his fielding isn't up to much either.

Haha remember that innings. It was atrocious. Poor Faf played a blinder

 

[Black_Warrior]

On the most grounds yes, not this one. 231 was chased here when gayle went crazy in a t20 game,SA has chased 208 here. 434 was chased here in a 50 over game. So its quite doable if the batting side keep their head. Warner and Maxwell played well, wise & tahir had an off day. But SA missed 10-15 runs when they send in behardien who only pushed a few singles before getting out ahead of wiese/morris.

Well that's one way of looking at it, the other way of looking at it is that even 230 wasn't enough, so perhaps the problem isn't 230 or 204, the problem might be the bowling, both then and now.

 

[Spikey]

i can almost get behind the structure of the aus team. get rid of agar for zampa and im fine with it.

then it's just the personal.....

 

[vcs]

It's bullshit though. India have choked plenty recently too. No one gets annoyed when they get called chokers when they deserve it. But when SA get called that word, suddenly people start saying stuff like what you two are saying (ie) other teams choke too, there were other factors contributing to SA's loss as well. Well, yeah, no ****, of course other teams choke too. And I don't agree that the other factors that led to SA's loss weren't considered. Most of the thread has been discussing how poor SA's bowling was at the end, and those atrocious wides and full tosses. It has not been the sole point of discussion here, and ironically only became the focus when other people felt the need to point out that it wasn't the main reason SA lost.

And I don't see why the word itself presumably carries such a negative connotation at all.

Because the choking explanation is the easy, armchair psychology one, which precludes discussion of the the actual underlying issues. Most of the time, it's a lazy cop-out. Obviously there are occasions (like '99 WC SF) when it is completely blatant and no other explanation fits.