***Official*** Australia in England (The Ashes)

[marc71178]

It wasn't, but it actually wasn't that bad for a county attack either. I mean, usually if you score runs in county cricket the bowling will be fairly average, but Warwickshire won the CC last season, and they had Ntini who is a bona fide test bowler. And, usually the Rose Bowl is fairly bowler friendly, although it could of course have been flat this time.

Ntini, Brown and dross really.

Warwickshire only won it last year because they had a great batting line up that made 500odd in just about every game, and so they didn't lose all season. They only won 5 out of 16 but the number of batting bonus points meant they were champions...

 

[sgb_sailor]

What's the difference between Matthew Hayden and Cinderella??



At least Cinderella got to the ball...

 

[shaka]

most of the time he gets caught in slips (Hayden)

 

[Storer123]

Here is my team for the 5th test

Langer
Hussey
Ponting
Martin
Clarke
Watson
Gilchrist
Warne
Lee
McGrath
Magill

 

[Nate]

Fantastic

I reckon. Great for SV at the very least.

 

[Pedro Delgado]

Pakistan is one team that hates to go into a test match with 4 bowlers, even though their batting line is so fragile that playing with 5 specialist batsmen often end them up into embaressment.They have found a very good batter in Asim Kamal for number six slot, but they are still tempted to axe him to accomodate an allrounder like Malik or Razzak to give them a 5th bowler option.Problem is that Razzak and Malik are not much of a test bowler.

Aus and Pak need an allrounder like Flintoff that can win matches with both bat and ball, he's an ideal number 5-6 player in a test team. Can Watson do the job for Australia in comming years??? that remains to be seen.

Players like Freddie don't come along very often, it's doubtful that Watson will be up there with him, as a bowler at least.

 

[age_master]

i dont think Watsons bowling would so that much to the english batting really - i didn't even think he had been that much for Hampshire...

 

[Zinzan]

I would say,

Langer
Hussey
Ponting
Martyn
Clarke
Warne
Gilchrist
Lee
McGill
McGrath
Tait.

McGill should be in the side, i'm also tempted to try out Symonds at test level.

LONG TAIL !!

 

[greg]

It wasn't, but it actually wasn't that bad for a county attack either. I mean, usually if you score runs in county cricket the bowling will be fairly average, but Warwickshire won the CC last season, and they had Ntini who is a bona fide test bowler. And, usually the Rose Bowl is fairly bowler friendly, although it could of course have been flat this time.

It was a dire attack (Ntini excluded, who presumably wasn't exactly bowling full tilt anyway). And however well they did last year, Warks didn't win the county championship by bowling lots of sides out twice and winning games.

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

Players like Freddie don't come along very often, it's doubtful that Watson will be up there with him, as a bowler at least.

Yeah. I think Watson has as much potential with the bat as anyone you care to name, but with the ball he's declined a lot since his last set of injuries and needs some work. He really was quite dangerous with the ball beforehand, and did some brilliant things with it in Australian FC cricket and deserved his average of 26 or whatever. I wouldn't totally write him off yet on reaching that level again, but right now he's definately a specialist batting option who can bowl a bit in ODIs, as Kallis used to be.

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

It was a dire attack (Ntini excluded, who presumably wasn't exactly bowling full tilt anyway). And however well they did last year, Warks didn't win the county championship by bowling lots of sides out twice and winning games.

I don't think it was "dire" by county standards, which is my point. I'm not suggesting it was a great attack, merely that it wasn't as bad as it could have been.

 

[greg]

And i said the same thing a day earlier than Waugh come up with the statement that Australia is missing the 5th bowler.

All these years Australia managed to bowl out opponents coz they had champion bowlers like McGrath, Jason, Warne, Flemmings etc.Also the Waugh brothers use to turn their arm over in time of need and i believe they use to do a pretty good job.

The ageing of Australian champ bowlers means that Aus need to go into matches with 5 bowlers.But who is going to be the fifth bowler is a million dollar question.

Most people IMO completely miss the point and oversimplify the "4 vs 5 bowler" debate. The key to every bowling attack is variety, and every bowling attack should be judged by the variety it offers, and therefore its ability to cope with different pitches and different match situations. Looking at it like this, McGrath and Warne are worth 4 or 5 bowlers in themselves eg. Warne can bowl as an attacking spinner who can take wickets when batsmen are just looking to defend, or as a defensive spinner who will force batsmen to take risks against him in situations where the batsmen are on top and looking to score runs. He gives them added variety by the fact that he can usually fill a role regardless of the pitch since he can turn the ball to some extent on most surfaces.

Compare for example with Ashley Giles who is basically a defensive spinner, who can only really be relied upon in the second innings (although he has made some improvements as an attacking spinner in the second innings in the last year which has given an extra, limited dimension to the England team).

McGrath similarly can play an attacking or defensive role, and his great experience makes him better able than most to cope with different pitches and is able to adjust his natural length slightly as required. It is hardly surpising that Australia are missing him - they've lost a bowler who is worth maybe 2.5 times the bowler who's replaced him.

Imagine what happens when McGrath and Warne both go. Who are the other Australian bowlers who can offer even half the variety of these two? McGill is an attacking spinner, but can't offer control. Lee can attack, but similarly can't give control, ditto Tait. Kaspa is the classical "defensive" seamer but he isn't even offering that at the moment. The future is not at all straightforward.

Analysing an attack's variety in this way shows why England have been such a revelation in this series. Before this series England has two back of the length bowlers, one "attacking" and one "defensive" (Harmison and Flintoff), a new ball "pitch it up" swing bowler (Hoggard), an old ball bowler (Jones) and Giles (see above). Pretty decent variety in itself but we they have developed even more as the summer has progressed. Flintoff's development of reverse swing and consistently fast pace has given him a massive new dimension as an attacking bowler, and as we saw at Trent Bridge Jones can now be considered close to equally potent bowling traditional swing as away swing. Short of an attacking spinner England have almost got the complete attack. (on non spinning pitches - where you might start wanting bowlers turning the ball both ways).

 

[Tom Halsey]

Well I can finally access CW after the change of server - thoughts after the 4th Test.

England nearly contrived to screw it up again, seriously tested the strength of my **** muscles.

The match leaves no doubt in my mind that Warne is the greatest bowler I've ever seen, and one of the greatest ever. No-one else would have turned it on its head like he did. No-one else would have believed they could win it. Warne got a few wickets and suddenly they're all believing.

I don't think Bell should be dropped. I'm not devoting much time to counting this, but in my mind he's played 1 stupid shot. Jones is another matter but I'd do it after The Oval. Chopping and changing has been our downfall in the past so if you're going to do it, I reckon it should be between series.

Kasprowicz should be dropped immediately, he is bowling like an absolute mug. As for these rumours about MacGill being in the side, as an English fan, I can only hope it happens.

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

Most people IMO completely miss the point and oversimplify the "4 vs 5 bowler" debate. The key to every bowling attack is variety, and every bowling attack should be judged by the variety it offers, and therefore its ability to cope with different pitches and different match situations. Looking at it like this, McGrath and Warne are worth 4 or 5 bowlers in themselves eg. Warne can bowl as an attacking spinner who can take wickets when batsmen are just looking to defend, or as a defensive spinner who will force batsmen to take risks against him in situations where the batsmen are on top and looking to score runs. He gives them added variety by the fact that he can usually fill a role regardless of the pitch since he can turn the ball to some extent on most surfaces.

Compare for example with Ashley Giles who is basically a defensive spinner, who can only really be relied upon in the second innings (although he has made some improvements as an attacking spinner in the second innings in the last year which has given an extra, limited dimension to the England team).

McGrath similarly can play an attacking or defensive role, and his great experience makes him better able than most to cope with different pitches and is able to adjust his natural length slightly as required. It is hardly surpising that Australia are missing him - they've lost a bowler who is worth maybe 2.5 times the bowler who's replaced him.

This is an excellent point, and it's really a key to Australia's monsterous success. McGrath and Warne are almost certainly the greatest pair of bowlers in test history. Whether or not individually they are the best ever at their craft is up for debate, but together they offer such incredible skill and diversity it is almost impossible for a team with both of them to lose on a consistent basis. As Mark Taylor once said, the most underrated aspect of Warne's game is his defensive abilities. He said that however good Warne was on a 5th day wicket with the opposition on the ropes, it was his ability to come on at 1/70 on a flat pitch on the first day and bowl 20 overs and concede 50 runs that set him apart. McGrath is a bowler who can bowl on any sort of pitch. He's absolutely lethal on a seamer, he's one of the best flat pitch bowlers ever seen and can extract life from any pitch, and he's really the complete fast bowler in every way except for pace. He can seam it, swing it, he's got a good bouncer, a yorker, a slower ball, an effort ball, he's about the most accurate bowler you could possibly hope for and he can even reverse it.

When you put those two bowlers together, and add their excellent longevity and match fitness and their competitve tempraments and the way they thrive when the pressure is on you simply can't have a bigger asset as a captain. Australia's team over the years has had some other elements, with some brilliant batsman, one of the best batting lineups ever seen in recent times, the once-in-a-lifetime brilliance of Adam Gilchrist and the underrated bowling support of Jason Gillespie, but really it's McGrath and Warne which took them from just being a good side and the best in the world to being an unbelievable side and one of the best of all time.

 

[honestbharani]

This is an excellent point, and it's really a key to Australia's monsterous success. McGrath and Warne are almost certainly the greatest pair of bowlers in test history. Whether or not individually they are the best ever at their craft is up for debate, but together they offer such incredible skill and diversity it is almost impossible for a team with both of them to lose on a consistent basis. As Mark Taylor once said, the most underrated aspect of Warne's game is his defensive abilities. He said that however good Warne was on a 5th day wicket with the opposition on the ropes, it was his ability to come on at 1/70 on a flat pitch on the first day and bowl 20 overs and concede 50 runs that set him apart. McGrath is a bowler who can bowl on any sort of pitch. He's absolutely lethal on a seamer, he's one of the best flat pitch bowlers ever seen and can extract life from any pitch, and he's really the complete fast bowler in every way except for pace. He can seam it, swing it, he's got a good bouncer, a yorker, a slower ball, an effort ball, he's about the most accurate bowler you could possibly hope for and he can even reverse it.

When you put those two bowlers together, and add their excellent longevity and match fitness and their competitve tempraments and the way they thrive when the pressure is on you simply can't have a bigger asset as a captain. Australia's team over the years has had some other elements, with some brilliant batsman, one of the best batting lineups ever seen in recent times, the once-in-a-lifetime brilliance of Adam Gilchrist and the underrated bowling support of Jason Gillespie, but really it's McGrath and Warne which took them from just being a good side and the best in the world to being an unbelievable side and one of the best of all time.

Great points as usual, Faaip. But I am afraid it seems it is all coming to an end. It will be interesting to see how Warne is able to cope without McGrath for any reasonable length of time. He had a tough time of it in India, but it will be interesting to see how it changes his bowling plans and his role within the side.

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

Great points as usual, Faaip. But I am afraid it seems it is all coming to an end. It will be interesting to see how Warne is able to cope without McGrath for any reasonable length of time. He had a tough time of it in India, but it will be interesting to see how it changes his bowling plans and his role within the side.

I don't think the issue is how either of Warne and McGrath bowl without the other. Warne had no McGrath in Sri Lanka and was dominant, and while McGrath struggled a bit in 2003 without Warne I think that had more to do with his injury to his ankle than Warne's absence. Warne's also been excellent in this Ashes series without McGrath.

No, the issue is how well Australia will do without the two of them. The presence of either one is such a huge boost to any team, that missing them will hurt. I think Australia can still be a good team and indeed I think they can still be the best in the world without them, but they will never be the force they have been because they are irreplacable as a pair.

 

[honestbharani]

I don't think the issue is how either of Warne and McGrath bowl without the other. Warne had no McGrath in Sri Lanka and was dominant, and while McGrath struggled a bit in 2003 without Warne I think that had more to do with his injury to his ankle than Warne's absence. Warne's also been excellent in this Ashes series without McGrath.

No, the issue is how well Australia will do without the two of them. The presence of either one is such a huge boost to any team, that missing them will hurt. I think Australia can still be a good team and indeed I think they can still be the best in the world without them, but they will never be the force they have been because they are irreplacable as a pair.

But in Sri Lanka, Gillespie was in good form. Now there is no Jason, Kasper is not at his best. Lee is doing well and that is about it. That is why I think it will be interesting to watch how Warne goes in this series and in the coming series as well, if McGrath still keeps getting injured.

 

[Magrat Garlick]

I reckon. Great for SV at the very least.

Not really.

Most likely, they're putting it on a pay channel I don't have.

 

[Isolator]

From the Benaud interview on Cricinfo:
(http://content-ind.cricinfo.com/engvaus/content/story/217739.html)

Has the rapid decline of some of the Australian bowlers come as a shock to you?
Jason Gillespie has a technical flaw in his bowling at the moment and if he corrects that - even though he's played so many Test matches - I see no reason why he can't come back. He's got a major flaw in his instant of delivery which we picked up on television on Channel 4 and pinpointed, but I don't know if anyone's working on it or not. But if he gets that right that I see no reason why he can't come back.

Can anyone elaborate on this? The bold-letter bit?

 

[Pratters]

Coincidentally I read the same interview right now and some thing quoteworthy:

Anyone even half-thinking of making a prediction would be out of his mind, when you take into account what happened at Edgbaston, Old Trafford and Trent Bridge.