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*Official* 2nd Test - England v India - Keep all Discussion Here Please!
- Thread starter luckyeddie
- Start date
There are a lot of changes required of this Indian team, but the "bench strength" being what it is, there doesn't seem to be too many replacements available. I saw a post by luckyeddie which said that Patel kept very well. Well, that is something to take heart from.
Both Nehra and Agarkar should be punished for their lack of responsibility and gross incompetence, but other than Yohannan, there doesn't seem to be anyone to take their place. Probably, Kumble and Yohannan should come in for those two. Agarkar's new-found "batting ability" should not be taken into consideration as he is in the side primarily as a strike bowler. Seeing his performances, the word strike bowler loses meaning if applied to him. Nehra was never as fast as the other two, accuracy was his forte, or so it seemed. I say, chuck him out now, otherwise he will never get the message. Who knows, he might come back a wiser and more disciplined bowler.
After the 1st test, somebody posted saying, Indian bowling was weak and were not expected to perform on a flat track while the much vaunted Indian batting which was, failed. So, all the blame on losing the 1st test(and not forcing a draw atleast) should go to the batting. I wonder what he is saying now. A pitch with uneven bounce in overcast conditions and the ball swinging like mad. Well, the bowling is still, you know, weak and we really can't expect too much from them, but the batsmen, I suppose have to force a draw tomorrow or else they should face the firing squad or something.
This again boils down to the point I was trying to make earlier, that of equal responsiblity, especially in a team game.
Both Nehra and Agarkar should be punished for their lack of responsibility and gross incompetence, but other than Yohannan, there doesn't seem to be anyone to take their place. Probably, Kumble and Yohannan should come in for those two. Agarkar's new-found "batting ability" should not be taken into consideration as he is in the side primarily as a strike bowler. Seeing his performances, the word strike bowler loses meaning if applied to him. Nehra was never as fast as the other two, accuracy was his forte, or so it seemed. I say, chuck him out now, otherwise he will never get the message. Who knows, he might come back a wiser and more disciplined bowler.
After the 1st test, somebody posted saying, Indian bowling was weak and were not expected to perform on a flat track while the much vaunted Indian batting which was, failed. So, all the blame on losing the 1st test(and not forcing a draw atleast) should go to the batting. I wonder what he is saying now. A pitch with uneven bounce in overcast conditions and the ball swinging like mad. Well, the bowling is still, you know, weak and we really can't expect too much from them, but the batsmen, I suppose have to force a draw tomorrow or else they should face the firing squad or something.
This again boils down to the point I was trying to make earlier, that of equal responsiblity, especially in a team game.
Neil Pickup
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Have you noticed how it's become a "flat track" when we start criticising Agarkar/Nehra/Zaheer...
[Edited on 8/11/02 by Neil Pickup]
Neil Pickup
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Great post. Yohannan impressed me a little on England's India tour two winters ago. What happened to Dinanesh (cough) Mohanty? Patel has looked assured for someone only five months older than me, he has a good future I think.
Yohannan is as yet, very raw and nobody, including himself(I suspect), has any idea of how he is going to perform, if picked for the 3rd test. however, the bright side(if you can call it that) is that you really can't get any worse than Agarkar and Nehra in the 2nd test(I sincerely hope that this is the bottom of the pit, you never know, someone might plumb hitherto unknown depths in the 3rd test). So, to get back to the point, Yohannan might or might not suck, but he should be given a chance to prove himself on the field.
Mohanty is a swing bowler,has bowled the occasional good spell in both tests and one dayers(mostly in one dayers), but he is just not consistent enough pretty much like Agarkar. He tends to bowl too short and too wide too often and gets punished. I guess, though, he probably wouldn't have been any worse than the present lot.
Mohanty is a swing bowler,has bowled the occasional good spell in both tests and one dayers(mostly in one dayers), but he is just not consistent enough pretty much like Agarkar. He tends to bowl too short and too wide too often and gets punished. I guess, though, he probably wouldn't have been any worse than the present lot.
aussie_beater
State Vice-Captain
Yes, I said that the responsibility for losing the first test lay squarely on the Indian batsman...no doubts there.
In this match the bowlers have let England bat into a position of victory, although the wicket was far more lively then the Lords one.Now, the onus is on the batsman to save the day about which I am not so confident.
The Indian seamers are no good, that's a well known fact.The only thing that needs to become a fact is that the Indian batsman are as incompetent as those bowlers.Hopefully, these guys will live to fight another day and the jury will still be out on them.
Neil Pickup
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Good to see we can have grown-up discussions 
India need to get to lunch with no more than one wicket down to really save the game. Three wickets and Agarkar's in, and if he's in before 1400 then I wouldn't back India to save it.
India need to get to lunch with no more than one wicket down to really save the game. Three wickets and Agarkar's in, and if he's in before 1400 then I wouldn't back India to save it.
If the question is who is really resonsible for the defeats, have you considered the following issues?
Who is actually pulling their weight in the team? Tendulkar failed according to his own high standards on the Windies tour, still managed to average 41, the much maligned Ganguly averaged 53, Dravid too averaged in the 50's while Laxman averaged 79 and don't say they boosted their averages with dead innings and never played when it counted. You know that's not true. With these as the averages of the top 4 batsmen, India still lost the series 1-2. Why do you think that happened?
Because of the long-term incompetence of the bowlers, which you also seem to agree with, reflect that opposition batsmen more often than not face one of the weakest attacks in test cricket(except maybe Bangladesh) while the batsmen by the same token face attacks which are at worst more disciplined and best, lethal. So, with the pressure compounded by facing huge scores due to the incompetence of bowlers and the fact that they are facing better attacks with the onus of atleast saving the match squarely on them, who has had a better success ratio over the years, the batsmen or the bowlers?
I am not saying that the batsmen come out smelling of roses every time while the bowlers always stink, but over a period of time, it is a fact that the batsmen have delivered more than the bowlers. That is the main reason why we have a lot of media projected and media hyped batting "superstars" while there has been hardly anyone in bowling since Kapil(except maybe Kumble on minefields at home). They probably don't deserve all the hype that they've got over the years, but they have performed better than the Indian bowling over the years which probably isn't saying much but as far as your argument goes, that's the answer.
I again reiterate that cricket is a team game and both batsmen and bowlers have equal responsibility. Being weak doesn't mean you can shy away from responsibility, it means that you either work at the weakness and overcome it as best as you can or else get the hell out of something you have no place in.
Who is actually pulling their weight in the team? Tendulkar failed according to his own high standards on the Windies tour, still managed to average 41, the much maligned Ganguly averaged 53, Dravid too averaged in the 50's while Laxman averaged 79 and don't say they boosted their averages with dead innings and never played when it counted. You know that's not true. With these as the averages of the top 4 batsmen, India still lost the series 1-2. Why do you think that happened?
Because of the long-term incompetence of the bowlers, which you also seem to agree with, reflect that opposition batsmen more often than not face one of the weakest attacks in test cricket(except maybe Bangladesh) while the batsmen by the same token face attacks which are at worst more disciplined and best, lethal. So, with the pressure compounded by facing huge scores due to the incompetence of bowlers and the fact that they are facing better attacks with the onus of atleast saving the match squarely on them, who has had a better success ratio over the years, the batsmen or the bowlers?
I am not saying that the batsmen come out smelling of roses every time while the bowlers always stink, but over a period of time, it is a fact that the batsmen have delivered more than the bowlers. That is the main reason why we have a lot of media projected and media hyped batting "superstars" while there has been hardly anyone in bowling since Kapil(except maybe Kumble on minefields at home). They probably don't deserve all the hype that they've got over the years, but they have performed better than the Indian bowling over the years which probably isn't saying much but as far as your argument goes, that's the answer.
I again reiterate that cricket is a team game and both batsmen and bowlers have equal responsibility. Being weak doesn't mean you can shy away from responsibility, it means that you either work at the weakness and overcome it as best as you can or else get the hell out of something you have no place in.
Neil Pickup
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I like it when people write 250+ words and I agree entirely with them. Saves the old Repetitive Strain Injuries..
aussie_beater
State Vice-Captain
I surely agree that the Indian bowling sucks.But lets look at some stats on the Indian batting in overseas tours for the last couple of years years starting with the Zim tour.
Indian batsman have been able to come with a score of 350+ on only four occasions in the 13 test matches starting with the Zim tour.And no wonder we managed to lose seven out of those thirteen matches.How do you intend to win matches with the batting lineup giving you scores like that ?
Does that tell you anything ? Atleast it has a glow sign for me telling that Indian batsman suck as bad as the bowlers overseas They are a much hyped lot with very little grit and character, although maybe with a lot of talent which is no good anyway.
That's my whole argument and I sincerely hope that they prove me wrong one day.
[Edited on 8/11/02 by aussie_beater]
Indian batsman have been able to come with a score of 350+ on only four occasions in the 13 test matches starting with the Zim tour.And no wonder we managed to lose seven out of those thirteen matches.How do you intend to win matches with the batting lineup giving you scores like that ?
Does that tell you anything ? Atleast it has a glow sign for me telling that Indian batsman suck as bad as the bowlers overseas They are a much hyped lot with very little grit and character, although maybe with a lot of talent which is no good anyway.
That's my whole argument and I sincerely hope that they prove me wrong one day.
[Edited on 8/11/02 by aussie_beater]
royGilchrist
State 12th Man
Yeah I agree with most of the stuff you wrote Anil. As much as I get frustrated by the Indian batting at times, and how they 'on paper' are said to be the best in the world, the exceptionally poor bowling does rub off on them too.
I mean, its impossible for a batting side, any batting side, to score 500+ every innings when the bowling is failing every time to make any kind of impression. The WI series like you said, is the perfect example, where no one in the batting department failed, but they still lost 2-1. On a larger scale, all the batting averages in the Indian team are very good Dravid, Laxman, Scahin, Ganguly, Sehwag, but they are still blanked out abroad.
I personally feel very strongly that bowling needs two ingredients to miraculously change its outlook and output: an Inspirational captain and role models. For Pakistan Imran did these both together.
Just thnk about it, before Imran came along in the seventies, Pakistan did not have any fast bowlers of note in their history. Fazal Mahmood was obviously talented but the lack of matches makes him more a talent as opposed to accomplished all time great. I think he was compared with Alec Bedser.
Still, after Imran, within 15-20 yrs, Pakistan is now called one of the best fast bowling nations ever. If compiling the all time best teams, Wasim, Waqar and Imran's name pop up more than probably any three English bowlers, definetely more than any Indian or NZ bowlers, both of which have a much longer cricketing history. Pretty amazing.
And thats not half the story, the role model factor, is even more prominent now. Before Imran Pakistani kids wanted to become batsmen. There had not been any talented bowlers in Pak. But since Imran, Pak has had Wasim, Waqar, Shoaib, Mohd Zahid, Mohd Akram, Shabbir etc. Unbelieveable really. Some might overlook the Imran factor in this, but I think its quite obvious and cannot be ignore.
India just needs one role model from somewhere to pop up, and then all would be fine.
I mean, its impossible for a batting side, any batting side, to score 500+ every innings when the bowling is failing every time to make any kind of impression. The WI series like you said, is the perfect example, where no one in the batting department failed, but they still lost 2-1. On a larger scale, all the batting averages in the Indian team are very good Dravid, Laxman, Scahin, Ganguly, Sehwag, but they are still blanked out abroad.
I personally feel very strongly that bowling needs two ingredients to miraculously change its outlook and output: an Inspirational captain and role models. For Pakistan Imran did these both together.
Just thnk about it, before Imran came along in the seventies, Pakistan did not have any fast bowlers of note in their history. Fazal Mahmood was obviously talented but the lack of matches makes him more a talent as opposed to accomplished all time great. I think he was compared with Alec Bedser.
Still, after Imran, within 15-20 yrs, Pakistan is now called one of the best fast bowling nations ever. If compiling the all time best teams, Wasim, Waqar and Imran's name pop up more than probably any three English bowlers, definetely more than any Indian or NZ bowlers, both of which have a much longer cricketing history. Pretty amazing.
And thats not half the story, the role model factor, is even more prominent now. Before Imran Pakistani kids wanted to become batsmen. There had not been any talented bowlers in Pak. But since Imran, Pak has had Wasim, Waqar, Shoaib, Mohd Zahid, Mohd Akram, Shabbir etc. Unbelieveable really. Some might overlook the Imran factor in this, but I think its quite obvious and cannot be ignore.
India just needs one role model from somewhere to pop up, and then all would be fine.
The team has become so dilapidated (??) that it is now difficult to even predict how bad they will be..
Well played England.. They really knew how to kill poor bowling.
...and I thought England wouldn't reach 400!
Yohannan should've played!.. Nehra and Agarkar were worse than crap!! Mohanty was quite erratic most of the time, even though he seemed better than yesterdays stuff.!
Well played England.. They really knew how to kill poor bowling.
...and I thought England wouldn't reach 400!
Yohannan should've played!.. Nehra and Agarkar were worse than crap!! Mohanty was quite erratic most of the time, even though he seemed better than yesterdays stuff.!
Anil: I actually kinda agree with A_B here. The indian batting avg looks good. But was flattered by some good performances on flat pitches in windies (Or we could say anywhere)
Botht the matches we lost the batsmen simply crashed in one innings so badly that the bowling which at best is steady coulndt do much.
Tht said..we are setting a new world record for worthlessness in england. Sometimes i wonder if the indian bowlig and batting attacks compete with each other to see who will do worse
!
Botht the matches we lost the batsmen simply crashed in one innings so badly that the bowling which at best is steady coulndt do much.
Tht said..we are setting a new world record for worthlessness in england. Sometimes i wonder if the indian bowlig and batting attacks compete with each other to see who will do worse
!
luckyeddie
Cricket Web Staff Member
10.40 am Monday, Derby.
A glorious sunny day (a little breezy).
Sachin likes the sun on his back, there won't be a bowler-friendly atmosphere - and entry fee's £10.
Very tempting......
Nope. Channel 4 and a beer.
A glorious sunny day (a little breezy).
Sachin likes the sun on his back, there won't be a bowler-friendly atmosphere - and entry fee's £10.
Very tempting......
Nope. Channel 4 and a beer.
luckyeddie
Cricket Web Staff Member
India batted really well today, showed a lot of patience and deserved the draw.
One thing though - I've heard of proactive captaincy, but Hussain is taking it to rediculous extremes. No slips, 3 gullies, a point and a fly slip for Ganguly, numerous bowlers having 2 over spells and the like.
I got a headache watching him!!!
One thing though - I've heard of proactive captaincy, but Hussain is taking it to rediculous extremes. No slips, 3 gullies, a point and a fly slip for Ganguly, numerous bowlers having 2 over spells and the like.
I got a headache watching him!!!