ODI ATG XIs

[harsh.ag]

Also if you're picking Cairns as an ODI 7 finisher (rather than someone who can score 100s from 5/6), I'd pick Oram (much much better change bowler)

Yeah, have thought about this too. Oram is much more hit and miss as a bat though, and NZ's batting seems to need more bolstering than their bowling.

 

[TheJediBrah]

You need to change your doctor or check the functionality of BP machine.

ok this is just getting lame. It's not even funny.

Also if you're picking Cairns as an ODI 7 finisher (rather than someone who can score 100s from 5/6), I'd pick Oram (much much better change bowler)

Saw some highlights of Kyle Mills recently, he was chucking it surely? Very dodgy action for a guy who never got called (afaik)

 

[stephen]

1. There is considerable difference in AVG and SR of specialist batsman in early 90s and late 90s.
2. I am talking about Top Order Lara , not overall , and why he is my opener in AT 11. (Lara is my 6th best odi batsman overall after Sachin , Viv , ABdV , Kohli and Dhoni .. way higher than Mark Waugh. but that's a different case.)
3. 46 matches is not a purple patch. That's the total number of matches he played as a regular opener. ( FYI number 3 Lara was far better than Opening Lara.)
4. 46 matches or 52 matches , Lara opening stats remained same more or less.
5. Lara slightly better AVG , better strike rate and vastly superior in 1-3 positions than Junior.

The main difference between the early 90s and the late 90s was that more ODIs were played. There wasn't much of a statistical difference.

Lara averaged more in the late 90s but that corresponds with him getting more into his peak years.

No doubt Lara was a great and he easily makes the WI first XI, but he was not significantly better than M Waugh long term. He was probably a fraction better but he wasn't clearly the second best opener of all time and I'd probably take M Waugh as an opener over him because Waugh played a significantly higher proportion of his career there and their averages and strike rates are within the margin of error of each other.

I'd take Lara at 3 over Waugh though and it's pretty close between them unless you cherry pick. Waugh might edge ahead due to his bowling and fielding but Lara was no slouch in the field either.

 

[CricAddict]

Age/health jokes are not cool. Even when directed at Burgey.

Worried that you are getting old? BTW, Happy Birthday Ankit. Yakku

 

[CricAddict]

I can understand rating players based on World Cup records but it is quite weird to rate players just based on their WC final record. There has been more than 4000 ODIs played so far and only 11 WC finals. 11/4000 is a far too small sample size to rate anyone.

 

[Borges]

11/4000 is a far too small sample size to rate anyone.

Why not?
If it is unavoidable that carefully picking only 11/4000 is required to prove that my boy is better than your boy, then I say that 11/4000 is the correct, ideal, sample size.

 

[h_hurricane]

Why not?
If it is unavoidable that carefully picking only 11/4000 is required to prove that my boy is better than your boy, then I say that 11/4000 is the correct, ideal, sample size.

And it gives a golden opportunity to bring down a player or a nation you hate if the player or nation has performed poorly in this 0.275% sample size.

 

[Borges]

I don't really hate any player, or for that matter any nation; at least not hate them enough to resort to these kinds of shenanigans.
What I want is something that is very simple, very basic: I want everyone else to agree with me - become a fellow believer - that my boy is better than those other boys.

 

[mr_mister]

Interesting point about WCs being like grand slams.

Just as a final note, Juniors record as an opener in world cups is 17 matches, 4 tons, 3 fifties, average of 57 strike rate of 81. Not trying to reignite the debate from before so hold your horses sunilz. Just interesting how strong Waugh performed in WCs relative to other ODIs. I'm gonna break it down coz I'm bored

When I dig deeper, it appears the bulk of those runs came against NZ, India and Zimbabwe. A century against each, plus a 70+ score each against India and Zim. So not minnows, but not top tier with the ball obviously. But against these 3 teams, 5 of 6 innings were over 70

He got some useful token minnow bashing runs against Kenya and Scotland. Only had the one dig against Sri Lanka but failed.

He had 7 games against the top bowling sides, Windies, Pak and SA

Against the mighty bowling of the Windies and SA, he failed majorly on 4 of 5 occasions. Crucially in two semis. Luckily Australia advanced through both of them. Against the might of Pakistans bowling he hit 41 and 37* in the final so I'd give that a pass.


In the 7 games Waugh got 50 or more, we won all 7. In the 5 we either lost or tied, he averaged about 17

 

[Burgey]

I can understand rating players based on World Cup records but it is quite weird to rate players just based on their WC final record. There has been more than 4000 ODIs played so far and only 11 WC finals. 11/4000 is a far too small sample size to rate anyone.

That's fine and you're entitled to your view, erroneous as it may be. I likewise find it bizarre to rate players based on what are largely glorified centre wicket sessions which are normal ODIs.

But in any event, as I mentioned earlier, this thread is now closed since I named the definitive all time ODI XI earlier today. Let's move on.

 

[Andy1993]

Im very late to this thread and not gonna read through 68 pages of comments, but is it worth me posting my all time ODI XI's here and open them up for discussion?

 

[ankitj]

That's fine and you're entitled to your view, erroneous as it may be. I likewise find it bizarre to rate players based on what are largely glorified centre wicket sessions which are normal ODIs.

But in any event, as I mentioned earlier, this thread is now closed since I named the definitive all time ODI XI earlier today. Let's move on.

Why are you returning again and again to the closed thread? Please move on.

 

[h_hurricane]

Im very late to this thread and not gonna read through 68 pages of comments, but is it worth me posting my all time ODI XI's here and open them up for discussion?

Acceptable as long as you pick them based on WC finals performance. Sadly none of the Eng,SA or NZ players are in the reckoning. You will get chance to change your XI 5 months down the line though

 

[harsh.ag]

Im very late to this thread and not gonna read through 68 pages of comments, but is it worth me posting my all time ODI XI's here and open them up for discussion?

Yes, indeed.

 

[mr_mister]

Kenya ATG XI

Kenny Otenio +
Ravi Shah
Steve Tikolo *
Maurice Odumbe
Hitesh Modi
Collins Obuya
Thomas Odoyo
Asif Karim
Jimmy Kamande
Peter Ongondo
Martin Suji

Probably too many bowlers, as Odoyo is a weak 7, but I can literally only find 8-9 players who have scored an international 50 against a non minnow. Besides Odoyo was basically their Constantine to Tikolos Headley so he gets to play as an AR.

Sujis average was terrible but he had to hold the attack on his shoulders when they were facing the toughest batting teams. Kamande and Ongondo pick themselves with a decent record in the time before Kenya only ever played minnows, but neither did much in the early years of their career

Karim soley in for his OP spell against Australia in 03

Obuya gets in on the back of one awesome innings against aus and that famous spell against SL with the ball, both in WCs. Modi was semi reliable during their golden period, good for a start.

Otenio, Tikolo and Odumbe put up some decent scores in the 96, 99, 03 world cups. All scored a fifty in each and Tikolo of course got 2 each in his first 4 WCs


This entire team probably played together in the early 2000s. Certainly could back them to beat most of the current minnows

 

[stephen]

Acceptable as long as you pick them based on WC finals performance. Sadly none of the Eng,SA or NZ players are in the reckoning. You will get chance to change your XI 5 months down the line though

I don't really think any of the current Australian side are destined to be ATG players in ODI cricket. Although Cummins may surprise us.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Starc is an ATG in ODIs imo

 

[ankitj]

Just realized Mark Waugh finished with average under 40. Why is he rated higher than Hayden then? If you are picking Australia XI, might make even more sense to prefer Hayden to partner Gilchrist with whom he made one of the top 3 ODI opening partnerships (other 2 in my books are: Greenidge/Haynes, Tendulkar/Ganguly).

 

[Andy1993]

Yes, indeed.

ok awesome il post them in a bit

 

[Bolo]

Just realized Mark Waugh finished with average under 40. Why is he rated higher than Hayden then? If you are picking Australia XI, might make even more sense to prefer Hayden to partner Gilchrist with whom he made one of the top 3 ODI opening partnerships (other 2 in my books are: Greenidge/Haynes, Tendulkar/Ganguly).

Era. Things were getting very friendly for bats by the time hayden started to score. And i waughs record as an opener is better anyway. But if looking at records as an opener rather Watson. Bowling counts for a bunch.