My International OverRated XI

[Goughy]

I may be biased, but I don't think he's overrated. I used to feel that way, but he's really improved over the last few seasons - the Aussies have got a lot of respect for him.

Maybe he is just looking better. Both wicket taking and economy rate have worsened over the last few seasons.

 

[Dick Rockett]

Wicket taking, I'll give you that. But you wouldn't say that about his economy rate if you'd seen him play lately.

 

[Goughy]

Sorry but Kallis and Punter are a notch below Tendy-Lara.
Those two made runs in the 90s and early 2000s, when the pitches had more juice in them and there were several great/near-great/excellent bowlers around. Ambrose, Walsh, Donald, Sreenath, Wasim,Waqar, etc. have not been replaced adequately- nowhere close infact.
I judge batsmen when it comes to batting against the best of the best.
In the last 15 years, that would be against AUS, WI ( pre 2001), RSA ( pre 2003), PAK ( pre 2003), IND at home and SL at home.
In all those, Tendy and Lara are close, with Tendy achieving a bit more. ( i think Tendy averages 51 and Lara 48 in the abovementioned criterias).
Followed by Tugga.
Punter averages 46 or so and Kallis a rather mediocre 41-42.

As such, every dog has his day but not every dog is in the derby.

Well Im sure they did score more runs in the 1990's.
Tendulkars debut in 1989
Lara's debut in 1990

Kallis and Ponting both made their debuts in 1995.

They all matured at different times. I am not knocking Tendulkar and Lara (both are great players) but they are both just on the start of the down slope whilst Punter and Kallis are in their prime.

Im not arguing who was the best a decade ago, but who is the best now.

 

[C_C]

Well Im sure they did score more runs in the 1990's.

Not just more runs, much better average- both overall and against the best of the best.
And Lara might be 'significantly more matured' after the early 90s than Punter or Kallis but Tendy is 1 or 2 years older than them- he was very much in their 'club'. Just that his prodigious talent meant Tendy was a great long time before Punter or Kallis were even established.

I am not knocking Tendulkar and Lara (both are great players) but they are both just on the start of the down slope whilst Punter and Kallis are in their prime.

Im not arguing who was the best a decade ago, but who is the best now.

If you mean now, i would still go with Lara. His record over the last 3-4 years is in the top 3 for that period and he bats with almost negligible support.
And while Tendy has largely disappointed since 2002, I still wouldnt write him off. But when it comes to 'overrated/underrated', that is purely reputation. As such, their entire careers must be brought in focus or going by 'today alone', Bradman would be extremely overrated(since he is dead) and Viv would be massively overrated too....
Overrated are players who were/are given monster billings but flattered to decieve.
As such, Hick figures high in that list. Others, i wouldnt know.

 

[Richard]

What's with people going along with this fallacy that the pitches are so much easier for batting in the subcontinent? Subcontinental tracks are no easier or harder to bat on than any around the world, in fact I'd say Australian pitches are the flattest around at the moment and the fact that the Aussies win so many matches at home is due to their brilliant bowling.

I'd say English pitches are generally - slightly - better for batting than Australian ones.
Scoring-rates in England (even removing Bangladesh 2005 and Zimbabwe 2003) have been stupidly fast since 2001.

 

[Richard]

Interesting stats being chucked around about Vettori, they certainly don't cast him in a very favourable light!

I may be biased, but I don't think he's overrated. I used to feel that way, but he's really improved over the last few seasons - the Aussies have got a lot of respect for him.

I have noticed he doesn't take bucketloads of wickets, which is frustrating, but he always looks like he's going to. He seems to have a really hard time getting LBWs. Perhaps it's the angles he bowls? I do know that the opposition put a lot of work into countering him.

I certainly feel that although Giles has improved heaps too, he's fairly one dimensional - turn it from outside leg. Vettori has more variation and better control, it's a mystery to me why he can't take wickets. *sigh*

Vettori has been bowling better the last year (since The 'Gabba 2004\05) than he was for the 3 years before that (since Christchurch 2001\02), IMO he's been pretty unlucky (with lbws and the odd other thing).
Equally, Vettori had often bowled well on the relatively-rare occasion he encountered a turning pitch 1997-2001.
I don't set much stall by the "the Aussies respect him" bit, though - you have to perform against more than 1 team.

 

[Richard]

As such, Hick figures high in that list. Others, i wouldnt know.

Hick figures high in that list only 1991-1993 and 1996-2001, which formed only just over half his Test career.

 

[Langeveldt]

Taibu definitely, if he was an Aussie, he'd be compared to a batting version of Mick Lewis

 

[C_C]

Hick figures high in that list only 1991-1993 and 1996-2001, which formed only just over half his Test career.

I would say that Hick ranks very highly in that list. I remember in the mid 90s when India went to England, the english commentators and newspapers were bigging up Hick to be the next Tendulkar, with Beefy chipping in his two cents as well. As such, for someone preordained to achieving the status of 'alltime great batsman', he failed miserably.

 

[open365]

I don't think you can over rate Tendulkar or Lara.

Throw about as many stats as you want, these too players have been superstars of cricket in there countries and abroad, they are true ledgends of the game, people who i will tell my Grandsons about when i'm older, they inspire so many people, i don't think Kallis has or will ever have the same quality.

They have acheived enough already, i don't care what happens for the rest of there careers, they have secured their place next to Sobers and Bradman in cricketing heaven and no amount of runs can top that.

 

[Richard]

I would say that Hick ranks very highly in that list. I remember in the mid 90s when India went to England, the english commentators and newspapers were bigging up Hick to be the next Tendulkar, with Beefy chipping in his two cents as well. As such, for someone preordained to achieving the status of 'alltime great batsman', he failed miserably.

Yet these days most people regard Hick as a non-stop failure in Tests... when in reality he was anything but.
As such he's much more underrated than overrated.
Earlier in his career he was indeed most overrated.

 

[Goughy]

Firstly, thanks for ignoring those Inzy stats I pointed out earlier. That's always the best way to try and win an argument, ignore the facts that rebut your stance

Secondly, Tendulkar was still scoring runs well into the 21st century. Its only since 2003 onwards that he has dropped off at test level. In ODIs he's still a brilliant batsman.

And for "What have you done for me lately", would you like me to point out how many centuries Lara scored in 2005? Or should I save you the embarassment?

WTF?

What embarassment! have you even looked at the averages? Lara's average in last 10 games is far lower than Inzi, Ponting and Kallis and it gets even lower if you expand it to 20 games.

last 10 games
Lara had had 5 tons with only 1 other 50. He has scored under 20 nine times in those 10 tests. He has been anything but consistent. av 63
Comapre with
Inzi- 5 tons and 6 other 50s and only 3 dismissals under 20 av=80
Ponting- 6 100's and 4 other fifties with 3 innings under 20 av=74
Kallis- 4 tons and 4 other 50's with only 3 innings under 20 av=84

Lara is incredible but you cannot use recent history to back him currently being a better player than the other 3. Lara has recently been a boom-bust inconsistent player compared to the special consistency of the others.

As for ignoring Inzi, he is a differnet cat. His greatness is that he drags and carries (if its possible to do both at the same time) his team to success. When he does well Pakistan does well. He influences the outcome of games more than any other batsman.

Inzi averages over 80 in the 45 games Pakistan have won during his career. He should be the definition of great (scoring heavily when the team needs it and on a track that shows a team can take 20 wickets on it) rather than Lara who has padded his stats in draws to the tune of a 74 av in 31 drawn games).

Ill take the man who does it when it counts.

Embarassment!!! Hrumph, make an agruement that takes out your bias towards a certain player

 

[Goughy]

Wicket taking, I'll give you that. But you wouldn't say that about his economy rate if you'd seen him play lately.

Well facts mean nothing if your eyes tell you differently

His economy rate has been declining over the previous couple of years

 

[Jono]

As for ignoring Inzi, he is a differnet cat. His greatness is that he drags and carries (if its possible to do both at the same time) his team to success. When he does well Pakistan does well. He influences the outcome of games more than any other batsman.

Inzi averages over 80 in the 45 games Pakistan have won during his career. He should be the definition of great (scoring heavily when the team needs it and on a track that shows a team can take 20 wickets on it) rather than Lara who has padded his stats in draws to the tune of a 74 av in 31 drawn games).

Ill take the man who does it when it counts.

Embarassment!!! Hrumph, make an agruement that takes out your bias towards a certain player

Yeah so it doesn't count when you are up against the best team in the world, and need your best player to stand up tall and score runs eh? Explain to me why Inzy averages so little both against Australia and in Australia.

 

[Dick Rockett]

Well facts mean nothing if your eyes tell you differently

His economy rate has been declining over the previous couple of years

Not true.

According to Howzstat, in his last 10 ODIs (where RPO is most important) he's managed 3.88 RPO, vs career stat of 4.22. In tests, it's only 0.03 RPO higher than his career stat.

His test average for his last 10 tests is 24.48, and 6 of those tests were vs Australia. Admittedly the others were vs Bangladesh and Zimbabwe.

A quick look at Statsguru also shows that his bowling averages in both forms of the game have been steadily dropping since around 2003/04 when both were at or near career highs.

So it's not just my eyes

Now, I know that you said "over the last couple of years", but you don't appear to be able to look up economy rate data in Statsguru at least. Perhaps I'm not looking hard enough?

 

[Ming]

Aye, Vettori overrated.

Making what is effectivley a World All Star team just because of a good RPO is a stretch.

Good bowler but should not be mentioned with the best bowlers in the world. That he is the best left arm orthadox in the world says more about the lack of talent internationally than him.

Anyone who knows me , knows my opinion of Ashley Giles and it aint great.

Giles Av last 20 tests = 38.29
Vettori Av last 20 tests = 37.12

Confuses me that one is a world beater and the other is a wheelie bin!

I was talking about ODIs, where Vettori has proved to be one of the best containing bowlers going around, if not the best.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Where does that say you are from...Ah Trinidad it makes sense now

Smileys aside, it's insulting to suggest that an opinion such as that is biased. It's not as though I didn't reason my opinion soundly.

Im not saying that Lara is responsible for the West Indies losing. However, in many sports a recognised sign of greatness is how you raise the performance of those around you. Look at Imran in '92 World Cup, How Border changed his game and became the lynchpin in turning an average Aus team around, How the England team without Flintoff lacks much more than batting and bowling but presence.

Lara has never redefined himself to benefit a poor WI team. In fact his teammates perfom better when he is not in the team. This is an unfortunate legacy and reflects badly.

I do obviously think Lara is a fantastic player and he has played a couple of unbeleivable knocks (one or 2 are upthere with the best ever). However, he has been elevated to a near God like status by so many people that he cannot possibley live up to the levels expected and therefore is overrated by many.

In fact my biggest issue with Lara is that his stats are padded more than virtually any other batsmen by what happens in draws. He avs 75 in drawn games and many runs have been scored in meaningless games.

All that said, how does Lara's team's inability to take wickets and score runs around him detract from his greatness? Could it not be a genuine lack of talent around him at times and at other times just that he's surrounded by poor players (albeit talented poor players)?

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Tendulkar and LAra - 10, 5, 0, 300, 0, 2

Thats why I think they are slightly overated they are both past their best and only rare occasions where they show us how good they really are.

Rare occasions? Lara? Short memory much?

Brian Lara was knocking out a century per match at the start of last year.

 

[Goughy]

Not true.

According to Howzstat, in his last 10 ODIs (where RPO is most important) he's managed 3.88 RPO, vs career stat of 4.22. In tests, it's only 0.03 RPO higher than his career stat.


So it's not just my eyes

Now, I know that you said "over the last couple of years", but you don't appear to be able to look up economy rate data in Statsguru at least. Perhaps I'm not looking hard enough?

This is a test cricket thread. His economy rate is increasing.

As for the last 10 games they are a blip that hides a true trend.

4 tests agains Zim and Bang with 31 wickets @ 12.1
6 tests against Aus= 19 @ 44.68

Any period in which 40% of games are played against the minnows will scew the stats. The numbers against Aus are not special.

 

[marc71178]

His test average for his last 10 tests is 24.48, and 6 of those tests were vs Australia. Admittedly the others were vs Bangladesh and Zimbabwe.

Yes, and it's well over 50 when you look at the 6...