My International OverRated XI

[Goughy]

Brian Lara can't be blamed for West Indies' defeats, any more than it's utterly meaningless that Stewart played in more defeats than any other Englishman.

Well, its not exactly comparing like for like is it. Stewart is not exactly a legend to the extent Lara is. You would think Lara may influence a game more than Stewart.

Also the WI team and Lara do deserve to be criticised for their record. They are not that bad a team, they have just played poorly and have underperformed. The WI have had a pretty good team on paper for a long time before the last couple of years.

People have agued that having Lara in the team other players rely on him and do not perform to their potential. This is not his fault, but what is obvious is that Lara has not shown a positive leadership role and has failed to drag the team up from their collective malaise as many great players across a variety of sports have done.

 

[Richard]

People said the same about Shoaib and Pakistan - going so far as to suggest Rana Naved-Ul-Hasan and Rao Iftikhar Anjum were better bowlers.
West Indies' batting may be good (on paper) of late, but the bowling has hardly been. Even Bradshaw's ODI form's been horrible recently.
Dwayne Bravo is the best bowler to have emerged from West Indies since Ian Bishop.

 

[Natman20]

Tendulkar and LAra - 10, 5, 0, 300, 0, 2

Thats why I think they are slightly overated they are both past their best and only rare occasions where they show us how good they really are.

 

[Ming]

Vettori over-rated? Who cares if he's bowling average is 35. His RPO of late has been fantastic.

 

[marc71178]

Lara and Tendulkar have the highest profiles in the world but I would think that many like myself who watch a lot of cricket would take Inzi, Ponting and maybe Kallis over them.

On what basis?

Over careers or recent time?

Over careers I'd pick SRT above any of those 3.

On recent form I wouldn't be dropping Lara.

 

[Goughy]

Vettori over-rated? Who cares if he's bowling average is 35. His RPO of late has been fantastic.

Aye, Vettori overrated.

Making what is effectivley a World All Star team just because of a good RPO is a stretch.

Good bowler but should not be mentioned with the best bowlers in the world. That he is the best left arm orthadox in the world says more about the lack of talent internationally than him.

Anyone who knows me , knows my opinion of Ashley Giles and it aint great.

Giles Av last 20 tests = 38.29
Vettori Av last 20 tests = 37.12

Confuses me that one is a world beater and the other is a wheelie bin!

 

[marc71178]

Difference there is that Giles' last 20 are all against the good sides.

Vettori's includes 4 vs Zim and Ban that take it from 66 @ 37.12 to 35 @ 59.29...

 

[Scaly piscine]

Awww, I thought someone had actually made a poll without a misspelling in it for a brief moment.

Anyway it's probably between Vettori and Lee in my opinion...

 

[Goughy]

On what basis?

Over careers or recent time?

Over careers I'd pick SRT above any of those 3.

On recent form I wouldn't be dropping Lara.

Inzi is a fighter and a winner. When he bats well his team wins. Lara bats irrespective of the surroundings or game situation (IMO).

There is not much to pick between them but I think Inzi, Kallis and Ponting are far more influential towards the success of their team.

As for recent for (lets say last 10 matches)
Lara is 4th (Av 63) and Tendulkar 5th (39)

Kallis 1st (Av 84)
Inzi 2nd (Av 80)
Ponting 3rd (74)

Career wise Kallis and Ponting have the highest Av, then Tendulkar (batting much in friendly India), Lara and Inzi.

Lara and Tendulkar are more glamorous but the other 3 are just if not more incredible.

Until recently I never really had the chance to study Kallis and I can tell you what I have no idea how to get him out. The others may atleast give you half a chance.

 

[Blaze]

Lol at Marc continuing to believe Giles and Vettori are evenly matched.

Vettori is horribly over rated in the longer form of the game, Giles is just ****.

 

[Richard]

In reality I'd say both are good fingerspinners who are effective when the ball turns for them. Neither, however, are capable of breaking the laws of human biology and being able to spin the ball enough purely with their fingers to make it turn on all surfaces.
Vettori, of course, was utterly useless between the start of calender-year 2002 and the end of season 2004 - 1 good Test and 14 bad ones (many very, very bad). However, some if not most of that can be put down to his back, which has always been problematic.
Before this period he'd generally been very effective when provided with a turning pitch.

 

[Jono]

Lara and Tendulkar have a high profile because of their immense accomplishments in the 90s, and you don't just lose that high profile, even if you do fall away as Sachin as done since 2002 in the longer form of the game.

Inzy, Kallis and Ponting, as great as they have been in the last 5-6 years, haven't done what those two did against the bowling attacks they faced. Simple as that.

 

[Jono]

Inzi is a fighter and a winner. When he bats well his team wins. Lara bats irrespective of the surroundings or game situation (IMO).

There is not much to pick between them but I think Inzi, Kallis and Ponting are far more influential towards the success of their team.

As for recent for (lets say last 10 matches)
Lara is 4th (Av 63) and Tendulkar 5th (39)

Kallis 1st (Av 84)
Inzi 2nd (Av 80)
Ponting 3rd (74)

Career wise Kallis and Ponting have the highest Av, then Tendulkar (batting much in friendly India), Lara and Inzi.

Batting much friendlier in India? Lol that's so ironic, look at:
1) The flat tracks Inzy has recently been belting all his runs on
2) Inzy's record against Australia (until England popped up recently, the last genuine good bowling attack since say 2001) and what's worse, his actual record in Australia. A test average against Australia of 31.4 and in Australia he averages a mere 30.88. Not impressive at all. Compared that to Lara (Against Aus: 53.63, In Aus: 41.97) and Tendulkar (Against Aus: 55.80, In Aus: 54.16) who have a much more impressive record against, and in Australia.

I'm a huge Inzy fan, but the contradiction there is amazing.

 

[Goughy]

Batting much friendlier in India? Lol that's so ironic, look at:
1) The flat tracks Inzy has recently been belting all his runs on

No doubt the the tracks are dogs for bowlers in Pakistan but still I currently Lara outside the top 3 in the world and Tendulkar nowhere near.

As for reputations about what they did in the 90's. Well its 2006 and the 20th century is a long time ago.

As the saying goes what have you done for me lately.

 

[thierry henry]

Vettori is the most overrated player. As a test match bowler he is generally completely innocuous. Chris Gayle has been turning it more than him for the duration of the current test. Vettori has been useless for about the last 6 years, except that he kills it against Zimbabwe and Bangladesh and holds his own against Australia.

 

[marc71178]

Lol at Marc continuing to believe Giles and Vettori are evenly matched.

And where did I say that?

Only pointing out some shocking figures which are far worse than Giles yet one gets so much crap thrown at him.

 

[Jono]

No doubt the the tracks are dogs for bowlers in Pakistan but still I currently Lara outside the top 3 in the world and Tendulkar nowhere near.

As for reputations about what they did in the 90's. Well its 2006 and the 20th century is a long time ago.

As the saying goes what have you done for me lately.

Firstly, thanks for ignoring those Inzy stats I pointed out earlier. That's always the best way to try and win an argument, ignore the facts that rebut your stance

Secondly, Tendulkar was still scoring runs well into the 21st century. Its only since 2003 onwards that he has dropped off at test level. In ODIs he's still a brilliant batsman.

And for "What have you done for me lately", would you like me to point out how many centuries Lara scored in 2005? Or should I save you the embarassment?

 

[Dasa]

What's with people going along with this fallacy that the pitches are so much easier for batting in the subcontinent? Subcontinental tracks are no easier or harder to bat on than any around the world, in fact I'd say Australian pitches are the flattest around at the moment and the fact that the Aussies win so many matches at home is due to their brilliant bowling.
It seems to be a point people tend to use to denigrate a subcontinental batsman, while at the same time when an equal batsman from another region fails in the subcontinent it's written off as an anomaly.

 

[C_C]

Kallis and Ponting are far more influential towards the success of their tea

Sorry but Kallis and Punter are a notch below Tendy-Lara.
Those two made runs in the 90s and early 2000s, when the pitches had more juice in them and there were several great/near-great/excellent bowlers around. Ambrose, Walsh, Donald, Sreenath, Wasim,Waqar, etc. have not been replaced adequately- nowhere close infact.
I judge batsmen when it comes to batting against the best of the best.
In the last 15 years, that would be against AUS, WI ( pre 2001), RSA ( pre 2003), PAK ( pre 2003), IND at home and SL at home.
In all those, Tendy and Lara are close, with Tendy achieving a bit more. ( i think Tendy averages 51 and Lara 48 in the abovementioned criterias).
Followed by Tugga.
Punter averages 46 or so and Kallis a rather mediocre 41-42.

As such, every dog has his day but not every dog is in the derby.

 

[Dick Rockett]

Interesting stats being chucked around about Vettori, they certainly don't cast him in a very favourable light!

I may be biased, but I don't think he's overrated. I used to feel that way, but he's really improved over the last few seasons - the Aussies have got a lot of respect for him.

I have noticed he doesn't take bucketloads of wickets, which is frustrating, but he always looks like he's going to. He seems to have a really hard time getting LBWs. Perhaps it's the angles he bowls? I do know that the opposition put a lot of work into countering him.

I certainly feel that although Giles has improved heaps too, he's fairly one dimensional - turn it from outside leg. Vettori has more variation and better control, it's a mystery to me why he can't take wickets. *sigh*