Mistakes in selection on this tour by England

[eempyrean]

Vince is getting some abuse yet Vince is (marginally) averaging/scored more runs than Joe Root in this series (and massively out-performed the woeful Ali and Cook), and has the third best highest English score. If anything it is your experienced players - Cook, Broad, Ali and (slightly less so) Root - who have been a colossal let down and your Malans, Overtons and to a lesser extent Vince who have proven their critics wrong.

I said Vince has done ok if you read my OP. He was unlucky in the last test, who knows how many he would have made without the freak delivery. I would have gone with Ballance at 4 before the series. So if I move Root to 3 I'd rather bring in Ballance at 4 as a rotation. The series is dead and when people are dragged out all the way to Australia away from family and friends I think it's fair to give Ballance a game in a dead series. Vince has a very poor career test average still to be fair. It would be a rotation though rather than a dropping. There is nothing to choose really between Ballance and Vince still. Ballance in his defence still has an ok test average above Vince, Malan and Stoneman

 

[eempyrean]

The weird thing about the current side is who could they drop to move Bairstow up and play Foakes? Malan and Vince have done a good job and neither Cook nor Root is going anywhere. The only real solution to me is drop Moeen and run with a four man attack, but that’s awfully sameish.

Moeen averages less than 20 with the bat in series and over 100 with ball..it makes sense to drop him either for Foakes or a bowler (depending if you want 4 or 5 man attack. and depending how better you think bairstow would be up the order without gloves. I'd go with 4 man attack with a spinner and part-time options to rest bowlers)

 

[eempyrean]

It makes little odds. Finger spinners achieve zero in Australia.

Swan played pretty well 10/11 but he was part of a team on a rampage. He was then forced into retirement after 2 tests in 13/14 because (IMO) he wanted his legacy to be a bowling average of <30, and that was about to be exploded.

Ali was never going to anything with the ball. With the bat maybe, yes. He deserved looking at by that metric.

Personally down under (as a general rule of thumb), I'd go 4 seamers and a one or two pie chucking offies in the batting order. IN short, if Ali makes it as a batsman, he plays. If not, it becomes irrelevant

oblong balls clearly doesn't understand that different players fair differently depending on the conditions (batsmen and bowlers)

4 seamers is another option..i like 3 seamers and a spinner as the spinner can bowl plenty of overs and then you rotate the seamers more to rest them and they are fresher when they bowl .4 seamers can work fine though with Malan/Root as options to rest them in theory. I'd like to give Crane a go though for a game.

 

[eempyrean]

Yeah i don’t want to sound too negative, but England playing a four man attack including a rookie leg spinner on Boxing Day wouldn’t do much save get Smith closer to bradman’s all time Wisden rating.

England can't get Smith out anyway. A leg-spinner can be a decent option in Aus to a right-hander getting tons of runs. Ironically Bradman (who you mention) didn't get his 100+ average due to a leggie..

 

[eempyrean]

Even the likes of Stoneman and Vince haven't been brilliant.

Stoneman's hasn't embarrassed himself and has tended to be in for a longish time to his credit.

Neither have done great at all. Just look at their series averages...you need 40+ average at this level to not have people questioning your place. They were after Ballance when he still averaged over 40. He's still averaging more than Stoneman and Vince comfortably and more than Malan. Bear in mind too Ballance bats best at 4. 3 isn't a natural position for him.

 

[eempyrean]

Yeah I'm not sure you can blame the selectors for this English tour. Ball, Woakes and Broad have all been woeful but that's not exactly the selectors' fault. Root and Cook and Broad and Ali all not stepping up and taking the responsibility that they should has been the problem.

For all the crap I give Anderson (mostly to wind up the poms on the forum itbt) he's been the only senior player who actually looks like the give a damn. Has Broad even beaten the bat once on this tour? Ali would be the GOAT all rounder if his batting and bowling averages were reversed. Root has looked like a rookie trying to cement his place in the side.

What is it with English players being turned to crap by the captaincy? Aussie captains step up when given the role but English captains seem to think that they don't have to bother scoring or taking wickets once they get the (c) next to their name.

Anderson is the most skilled England bowler. They are all trying their best on the field. Some of them are just out of their depth..bit harsh to say they don't care

 

[eempyrean]

Drop the non performers then. Guess you need to drop Cook, Ali and Broad. Root saved by the captaincy.

Look when your senior players are the problem that isn't fixed in 2 dead tests.

Drop Cook for who? I'm going by the squad they have taken. They don't have another opener in the squad. If you are going to argue with me at least be sensible. And Cook has done enough over the years to deserve another game or two before getting dropped. I am dropping Ali and Broad for the 4th test in the OP. I can't drop Cook, no other FC openers in the squad.

 

[eempyrean]

@ opening post. Pisses me off when people call wickets flat that have all given a result and caused both teams problems at times.

Rule no1: If you lose 20 wickets per match, it is not because wickets are flat. It is because you are ****.

They are flat. Australia just have a better and more balanced attack. England aren't as good at batting or bowling.

England have been terrible, that's the point. The wickets are flat and they have still been losing 20 wickets a game. You are making an obvious point. England have been **** and Aus have been very good.

 

[Gob]

They are flat. Australia just have a better and more balanced attack. England aren't as good at batting or bowling.

England have been terrible, that's the point. The wickets are flat and they have still been losing 20 wickets a game. You are making an obvious point. England have been **** and Aus have been very good.

Non of the wickets were flat. They were good for batting at times but not flat. There's a difference

 

[eempyrean]

Non of the wickets were flat. They were good for batting at times but not flat. There's a difference

Flat is generally a term used to mean good for batting....the Australian batsmen have looking like they were batting on a road at times..not a literally expression either..

 

[eempyrean]

England have made selection errors even within the current squad, it's been highlighted in this thread already that Bairstow should have played above Ali all along and Ball wasn't match fit.

I think Ali hasn't been match ready either, the injuries have prevented him having meaningful time out in the middle, however, in selecting a rookie spinner as back up then there has been no alternative but to play him. People who have been calling for Ali to be dropped have short term memories, he has been bowling very well in the 12 months prior to this tour and his batting has blossomed.

I have long been an advocate of Bairstow playing as a specialist batsman only and picking Foakes but in the absence of Stokes I can see why the selectors were nervous about this option.

Selector positives? Malan obviously, I wasn't sure about him but he has grown into the role and I genuinely hope he goes forward. Stoneman done just enough although he probably should have been an opener for England over the last three years and been completely comfortable at the top of the order for some time. Vince? It could still happen for him I guess. He has this winter to prove it finally.

England have been unlucky with injuries too of course but that should never be an excuse for some of the more obvious selection shortcomings.

You can give a front-line spinner a go. Moeen wasn't going to bowl sides out in these conditions.

Yes Malan has done well. Stoneman's problem is 40/50 and out or a cheap score. Hence his FC career average being poor and his test average currently being unacceptable.

Vince is another that gets starts and gets out or is out cheaply. The problem is they end up with poor averages. Malan has gone on and made a big score at least. I think that's the thing with Ballance. He has made some big scores and it's why his average is higher than all 3..because when he is in nick he cashes in...this is why Smith's average is a lot higher than Root (who is mr 50 and out) - obviously they have a lot higher averages than the previous 4 mentioned...but smith has an enormous average because of his long haul innings's

I think you're comment is fair, but also bear in mind to win games at this level (especially Australia away) you can't really play it safe and everyone can't be cosy..hence me going for a more aggressive side balance and taking the gloves from bairstow and bumping him up the order for more of a chance of big hundreds (due to the position and being fresher without the gloves obviously. Just look a Sangakkara with and without the gloves for example)

Ball selection was ludicrous. Probably due to being Broad's mate. I like your reply though, a sensible well thought out one with fair assessment

P.S. (I've rounded some of them to suit the eye better)
Stoneman test ave 31 fc ave 35.5
Vince test ave 23 fc ave 38
Malan test ave 35 fc average 37.8
Ballance test ave 37.5 fc average 48.5
Hameed test ave 44 (3 tests) fc average 37.8

I think this is worry tbh and shows how badly Vince has done in his 10 tests. averaging 23 in 10 tests as a batter is extremely poor. I think it's only fair too to consider Ballance has batted a lot out of position at 3 (he's a 4) and Malan has had it easier than the other three as he's batted middle order. It's good to compare these 4 imo as all on the edge of selection. Interestingly Hameed averages 44 in 3 tests and then never got picked again.

Vince only averages 23 in tests right now, which lets be honest is horrendous for a number 3. And 10 tests is a decent number of games.

 

[GuyFromLancs]

England's selections down under have always been governed by a kind of defensive pragmatism that in practice is guaranteed to backfire.

Even in 06, we dropped the in form (at the time) Panesar for Giles because the tail was too long. Ignoring that the tail was so long because completely shot as a batsman Flintoff was at 6 when in reality he was an 8 by then. And Jones was at 7 when he was a 17 by then. So the solution is to put Giles in for his stroke making skills which never materialised. We bring Monty back for Perth and he gets 8 wickets.

Not saying MP was top class because clearly, sadly he wasn't. But in 06, while there was some relative mystery about him, he was a more attack minded choice

 

[Groundking]

Can we please stop talking about Ballance as if he's actually a legitimate option? As soon as he came up against any attacks with a bit of pace and power to them he wilted and withered away. Since his first test against a legitimately good pace attack (New Zealand) he' had 23 innings, scoring 438 runs @ 19.04, before that against the toothless Sri Lankan, Indian and West Indies sides he managed 106 runs @ 62.35. The guy had had 42 innings now, and he hasn't once changed his technique, he's still trapped in his crease, and exposing him to this Australia attack would be beyond stupid.

Also in regards to Rashid, personally I don't think he's anywhere near good enough for the team, but frankly I thought it was ****ing ridiculous that he didn't get a chance at the start of the home summer this year and Dawson did, but picking Rashid isn't going to help us in Australia when he can't provide any pressure as there's a 4 ball in every over he bowls, and isn't anywhere near dangerous enough to compensate.

Ultimately we we're not going to not play Broad and Anderson, and I think Woakes has enough credit in the bank after his ridiculous 2016 summer that he was always going to get picked, so there's one bowling spot available, and the only player in the county scene that's anywhere near ready, offers something different to those three, and isn't crap (Wood is crap I'm sorry to all his fans, but he is) is the other Overton, and he's injured, so wtf are the selectors actually supposed to do?

Ultimately it would help a lot if we actually had a head coach who watched the county scene, but when the one guy who's really nocking down the door for selection once again proves to be crap, and then (statistically) the next lad who's putting his hand up gets into the team is managing a dizzying 31.30 average (Stoneman), the player after that is another opener, who bats on one of the flattest wickets in the league, and then the next couple are a bunch of kids we really don't have any options.

Personally Malan has done more than enough to make it to the Pakistan series for me, and Vince has shown enough to be given the rest of the series IMO. Then if he fails Stokes will hopefully be back for New Zealand, and Root will just have to bat 3 and man the **** up, as our other options are crap.

 

[S.Kennedy]

Root, the curse of craptain. Alan Border would've played anywhere required for the good of the team.

 

[Furball]

You can give a front-line spinner a go. Moeen wasn't going to bowl sides out in these conditions.

Yes Malan has done well. Stoneman's problem is 40/50 and out or a cheap score. Hence his FC career average being poor and his test average currently being unacceptable.

Vince is another that gets starts and gets out or is out cheaply. The problem is they end up with poor averages. Malan has gone on and made a big score at least. I think that's the thing with Ballance. He has made some big scores and it's why his average is higher than all 3..because when he is in nick he cashes in...this is why Smith's average is a lot higher than Root (who is mr 50 and out) - obviously they have a lot higher averages than the previous 4 mentioned...but smith has an enormous average because of his long haul innings's

I think you're comment is fair, but also bear in mind to win games at this level (especially Australia away) you can't really play it safe and everyone can't be cosy..hence me going for a more aggressive side balance and taking the gloves from bairstow and bumping him up the order for more of a chance of big hundreds (due to the position and being fresher without the gloves obviously. Just look a Sangakkara with and without the gloves for example)

Ball selection was ludicrous. Probably due to being Broad's mate. I like your reply though, a sensible well thought out one with fair assessment

P.S. (I've rounded some of them to suit the eye better)
Stoneman test ave 31 fc ave 35.5
Vince test ave 23 fc ave 38
Malan test ave 35 fc average 37.8
Ballance test ave 37.5 fc average 48.5
Hameed test ave 44 (3 tests) fc average 37.8

I think this is worry tbh and shows how badly Vince has done in his 10 tests. averaging 23 in 10 tests as a batter is extremely poor. I think it's only fair too to consider Ballance has batted a lot out of position at 3 (he's a 4) and Malan has had it easier than the other three as he's batted middle order. It's good to compare these 4 imo as all on the edge of selection. Interestingly Hameed averages 44 in 3 tests and then never got picked again.

Vince only averages 23 in tests right now, which lets be honest is horrendous for a number 3. And 10 tests is a decent number of games.

Who is this mystery front line spinner?

Moeen's ability with the bat seems to blind people to the fact that he's the best spinner in England.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Flat is generally a term used to mean good for batting....the Australian batsmen have looking like they were batting on a road at times..not a literally expression either..

If your definition of flat is any decent cricket pitch that isn't a minefield, then fair enough, they're flat

 

[cnerd123]

Drop Moeen Ali!
And replace him with who?
A proven front-line spinner!
And who is this proven front-line spinner?
Not Moeen Ali!

 

[stephen]

At least you can select Abbott on the next tour of Australia. He had a pretty decent time here last summer.

 

[Burgey]

What club cricket league has spinners of Moeen Ali's calibre playing in them?

Panesar played first grade in Sydney last year.

 

[cnerd123]

Panesar played first grade in Sydney last year.

Panesar of last year is a massive drop down from Panesar at his peak/Moeen Ali currently tho