Mistakes in selection on this tour by England

[Top_Cat]

The bloke played 50 Tests. You don't just lose it totally at his age, 'specially since it was as much to do with personal troubles as anything else. Notwithstanding I've not seen him bowl recently.

That said, I wouldn't drop Moeen. Bloke was one of England's go-to players in the home summer even if he looks shot at the moment. Worth keeping in the side for Khawaja alone. Bowling spin in Oz is hard, the only visiting spinner to have a decent series since I've been watching was a leggie. That aside, pretty barren. If he gets away a little with the bat, and in Sydney or Melbourne he might, that'll help his bowling too.

 

[flibbertyjibber]

Panesar of last year is a massive drop down from Panesar at his peak/Moeen Ali currently tho

Even with a broken ankle (training to do Dancing on Ice) he'd have bowled better than Moeen this series.

 

[Gob]

England had amazing pace depths in 10/11 now i think about it.

 

[flibbertyjibber]

England had amazing pace depths in 10/11 now i think about it.

We did, to be honest if we had a full strength bunch this time then it is probably stronger for home conditions right now but will struggle in Australia due to not having any real pace in the attack. Stokes would be our quickest and we have missed him more than anyone could imagine, not that he could have stopped us losing on his own.

 

[Woodster]

The bloke played 50 Tests. You don't just lose it totally at his age, 'specially since it was as much to do with personal troubles as anything else. Notwithstanding I've not seen him bowl recently.

That said, I wouldn't drop Moeen. Bloke was one of England's go-to players in the home summer even if he looks shot at the moment. Worth keeping in the side for Khawaja alone. Bowling spin in Oz is hard, the only visiting spinner to have a decent series since I've been watching was a leggie. That aside, pretty barren. If he gets away a little with the bat, and in Sydney or Melbourne he might, that'll help his bowling too.

Not many people have seen him bowl recently, played club cricket last season!

 

[JRC67]

Even with a broken ankle (training to do Dancing on Ice) he'd have bowled better than Moeen this series.

Monty went at over 4 runs an over in Australia and averaged over 50 against the Aussies in total. There's a lost of misty eyed recollections of English spin bowling success in Australia. Swann went for over 4 runs an over in his final Ashes tour. Not too sure how we develop spinners for these conditions.

 

[wpdavid]

England had amazing pace depths in 10/11 now i think about it.

We did indeed. There was talk of our 2nd choice pace attack being better than some sides' 1st choices.
Thinking back, we had Anderson, Broad, Tremlett, Finn, Bresnan and Onions all pretty much at their peak, so it wasn't such a silly claim, albeit slightly hubristic.
And I've probably forgotten someone.

 

[eempyrean]

Drop Moeen Ali!
And replace him with who?
A proven front-line spinner!
And who is this proven front-line spinner?
Not Moeen Ali!

Proven at FC level. Obvious you have to give them games to have a chance to prove themselves at test level..you can't use your logic forever

 

[eempyrean]

Can we please stop talking about Ballance as if he's actually a legitimate option? As soon as he came up against any attacks with a bit of pace and power to them he wilted and withered away. Since his first test against a legitimately good pace attack (New Zealand) he' had 23 innings, scoring 438 runs @ 19.04, before that against the toothless Sri Lankan, Indian and West Indies sides he managed 106 runs @ 62.35. The guy had had 42 innings now, and he hasn't once changed his technique, he's still trapped in his crease, and exposing him to this Australia attack would be beyond stupid.

Also in regards to Rashid, personally I don't think he's anywhere near good enough for the team, but frankly I thought it was ****ing ridiculous that he didn't get a chance at the start of the home summer this year and Dawson did, but picking Rashid isn't going to help us in Australia when he can't provide any pressure as there's a 4 ball in every over he bowls, and isn't anywhere near dangerous enough to compensate.

Ultimately we we're not going to not play Broad and Anderson, and I think Woakes has enough credit in the bank after his ridiculous 2016 summer that he was always going to get picked, so there's one bowling spot available, and the only player in the county scene that's anywhere near ready, offers something different to those three, and isn't crap (Wood is crap I'm sorry to all his fans, but he is) is the other Overton, and he's injured, so wtf are the selectors actually supposed to do?

Ultimately it would help a lot if we actually had a head coach who watched the county scene, but when the one guy who's really nocking down the door for selection once again proves to be crap, and then (statistically) the next lad who's putting his hand up gets into the team is managing a dizzying 31.30 average (Stoneman), the player after that is another opener, who bats on one of the flattest wickets in the league, and then the next couple are a bunch of kids we really don't have any options.

Personally Malan has done more than enough to make it to the Pakistan series for me, and Vince has shown enough to be given the rest of the series IMO. Then if he fails Stokes will hopefully be back for New Zealand, and Root will just have to bat 3 and man the **** up, as our other options are crap.

He's an option at 4, not 3. He makes runs at county level at 4. It's a bit unfair to shoehorn him in a 3 in tests. He could play instead of Vince, considering Vince still only averages 23 in 10 tests. Obviously Hameed at 3 is an option too that is rarely mentioned and Root 4. I think it's fair enough for him to stick to what works for him. His FC average is nearly 50 to be fair..it's miles clear of the likes of Stoneman, Vince, Hameed, Jennings, Malan.

Rashid is good on square turners. But doesn't have the control for these type of pitches. Moeen has the control, but doesn't have the turn or variation for these pitches.Dawson is a poor bowler, Ali is better than him (with ball and bat). I'd like to have seen England pick a front-line spinner who would have the same control as Ali but turn it more and/or have more variation.

I'm not convinced by Wood either. But he has pace at least. However, his control is abysmal.

Hameed is only 20 and performed for England before. Which is why I'd like to give him games. He's only young. He didn't have a good season, but nor did Vince and he got picked. And Stoneman has a horrendous FC average for a test opener. His test average so far is sub-standard. Cook being so piss poor has made Stoneman look reasonable, but Stoneman is below par too.

Yes Malan has done enough to retain his place definitely. I don't see how Stoneman has though with a 31 average considering Hameed averaged 44 in 3 tests and never got picked again. Vince has a horrendous average. I'm not sure about Ballance. He has a very good FC average and his test average is still 37.5. It's why I'd like to see him get a go at 4 (but never again at 3).

 

[ImpatientLime]

Proven at FC level. Obvious you have to give them games to have a chance to prove themselves at test level..you can't use your logic forever

who is?

 

[vcs]

They had good depth back then but you could argue that it was down to some decent bowlers like Bresnan (sorry, Howe), Tremlett and Finn just happening to peak at the same time.

 

[eempyrean]

Monty went at over 4 runs an over in Australia and averaged over 50 against the Aussies in total. There's a lost of misty eyed recollections of English spin bowling success in Australia. Swann went for over 4 runs an over in his final Ashes tour. Not too sure how we develop spinners for these conditions.

He took 10 wickets @ 37.9 in 06/07 in 3 games going at 4+ an over though

I just noticed Pietersen made 490 runs at 54.44 in that series. That's a lot of runs in a 5-0 loss. He took 1 wicket @ 16 too.

It you combine that with Collingwood's 433@48.11 then it's a bit ridiculous England managed to lose the series 5-0.

 

[eempyrean]

who is?

Leach has done very well 2 seasons in a row in CC div 1 and not got a game yet..not even on square turners in the sub-continent when England picked 3 all-rounders that bowl spin instead of a front-line spinner (which was far more criminal than playing Ali in this series)..

 

[ImpatientLime]

Leach has done very well 2 seasons in a row in CC div 1 and not got a game yet..not even on square turners in the sub-continent when England picked 3 all-rounders that bowl spin instead of a front-line spinner..

didn't he get left out in asia because of his dodgy action coming to light?

also he plays on pitches that rag square.

you're massively under selling moeen.

 

[eempyrean]

didn't he get left out in asia because of his dodgy action coming to light?

also he plays on pitches that rag square.

you're massively under selling moeen.

Moeen's first class average is over 40 with the ball. I'm not under selling him at all. He isn't a front-line spinner in county cricket. You can't seriously think a player with a FC bowling average over 40 is a world beater? He's a batsman who bowls at county level. His test average will soon be over 40 too with the ball, it's almost there. If you want Moeen in the team bat him at 3 and pick a front-line spinner too. He's a capable bat and bats like a clown the lower he bats. So his test batting average is possibly lower than it would be (can't say for sure though). He'd probably be better than Vince at 3 long term just with the bat, and he can bowl some overs too then (with support from a front-line spinner). Would be a risk though. Not sure Moeen's game or head is right to bat up the order in tests. Pretty sure he is an actual number 3 though at county level that bowls some overs.

Not sure about action. I think that was a smokescreen for the almighty selection **** up. I might be wrong though. His action is fine now though. He takes a decent number of wickets away from Taunton too.

 

[JRC67]

Leach has done very well 2 seasons in a row in CC div 1 and not got a game yet..not even on square turners in the sub-continent when England picked 3 all-rounders that bowl spin instead of a front-line spinner (which was far more criminal than playing Ali in this series)..

There is quite a big difference between his home and away stats. Didn't do himself a lot of good when he allegedly fell apart a little when Cricket Australia went for him. Sure he'll be given a chance, but he's not someone you'd have 100 percent in.

 

[ImpatientLime]

Moeen's first class average is over 40 with the ball. I'm not under selling him at all. He isn't a front-line spinner in county cricket. You can't seriously think a player with a FC bowling average over 40 is a world beater? He's a batsman who bowls at county level. His test average will soon be over 40 too with the ball, it's almost there. If you want Moeen in the team bat him at 3 and pick a front-line spinner too. He's a capable bat and bats like a clown the lower he bats. So his test batting average is possibly lower than it would be (can't say for sure though). He'd probably be better than Vince at 3 long term just with the bat, and he can bowl some overs too then (with support from a front-line spinner). Would be a risk though. Not sure Moeen's game or head is right to bat up the order in tests. Pretty sure he is an actual number 3 though at county level that bowls some overs.

Not sure about action. I think that was a smokescreen for the almighty selection **** up. I might be wrong though. His action is fine now though. He takes a decent number of wickets away from Taunton too.

Mate you can keep saying 'he's not a front line spinner' till you're blue in the face but it won't make it any truer.

 

[Starfighter]

also he plays on pitches that rag square.

Ah, this old chestnut. Good thing you weren't around in the fifties. 'We can't pick thus Laker fellow, he bowls on pitches that turn'.

you're massively under selling moeen.

Despite various good performances (including against SA last summer) he has never been more than mediocre over his career. A career average of 38 tells its story.

Mate you can keep saying 'he's not a front line spinner' till you're blue in the face but it won't make it any truer.

You can call him a front line spinner but he's not a very good one. Though I suppose this is the country that picked John Emburey for a decade and a half. And the fact is right now he is turning in a performance worthy of Ian Salisbury.

 

[Adders]

Look you can't judge Moeen Ali on a performance in Aus any more than you can any other spinner that's come here and gone the journey........and there are plenty that have and far better ones than Ali.

I'm more disappointed with his output with the bat as his bowling has gone exactly as expected. I put my Avatar up at the start of the series that Mo would average 45+ with the willow for the series........thank **** no one took me up on that.

Talk of dropping him though is just friggin crazy, he's been outstanding for a couple of years now as a batsmen and you don't drop a class player for 1 bad series. He probably doesn't do himself any favours by turning in the occasional match winning bowling performances like at Lords this summer, because all of a sudden everyone's expectations of him go up, and the reality is he's just not that good........but he's still probably still the best we've got.

 

[Compton]

I don’t think England’s selectors have made that many mistakes tbh. Most of their controversial picks have been the better performers.

They couldn’t drop Cook, Root, Moeen, Broad etc before the series; even if they did expect the poor performances they’ve churned out.