Mike Procter interview

[smash84]

These two quotes disturb me:

"If Symonds can't cope with racist **** because that is a no no from the value system that he comes"

Firstly, its not Symonds "value system" that is against racism, its pretty much a universal value. Barring a few dickwad countries, most are signed up to conventions and agreements discouraging and outlawing racism of all kinds. So its not about "not being able to cope with racist ****", because no one should ever have to. Its not an Australian or western expectation.

.

Straw man again.

I never said racism is not bad.

All I said is that who decides which is worse?

For some a racist slur may not be as bad as being called a mother****er. That's it.

 

[Arachnodouche]

I think the level of intimacy and friendship between the people involved matters also.

Unfortunately, the weight of history falls against white people so a racial pejorative coming from them will always carry far graver implications than if it originated from a colored person. doesn't apply to the Symonds issue obviously..sometimes I feel the whole thing could've been sorted out between the two in private. Both guys' ancestors have been called monkeys at one point in the past.

 

[smash84]

I think the level of intimacy and friendship between the people involved matters also.

Unfortunately, the weight of history falls against white people so a racial pejorative coming from them will always carry far graver implications than if it originated from a colored person. doesn't apply to the Symonds issue obviously..sometimes I feel the whole thing could've been sorted out between the two in private. Both guys' ancestors have been called monkeys at one point in the past.

 

[uvelocity]

see that doesn't bother me, I'm a white guy. But looking at the last few pages, to make a monkey joke and then to laugh at it is exactly the opposite side that some people don't seem to appreciate.

 

[Jono]

What gives you the right to piss on their couch?

If I piss on their couch, it doesn't give them the right to call me a ****ing black ****.

It doesn't mean I have the right to piss on their couch. Just means that racism isn't an answer to someone doing something to you that you don't appreciate.

 

[GIMH]

I bet you piss on a lot of couches don't you you ****?

 

[Jono]

Generally its a genuine accident itbt.

 

[smash84]

If I piss on their couch, it doesn't give them the right to call me a ****ing black ****.

It doesn't mean I have the right to piss on their couch. Just means that racism isn't an answer to someone doing something to you that you don't appreciate.

I never said that 2 wrongs make a right.

Just that why someone calling you a ****ing black **** be treated worse than you who pissed on that person's couch?

 

[Jono]

Yeah I understand that you are and some others are arguing that there isn't a difference between racism and other forms of abuse. I get that.

But you just have to understand that your previous comments didn't come out that way, they came out justifying the racism, or at the very least, made it look like Symonds should not be upset if racist remarks come his way in return. I think that ignores the history of racism in human history.

Very few people have been enslaved, lynched or lost land for issues surrounding mother ****ing

 

[GIMH]

Does it matter which is worse? The point is neither should happen.

When I was 15, a girl I knew referred to a lad as a 'long haired freak'. I was growing my hair out at the time and thought the comment poor so I told her so. Should I have called her a black ****? Of course not because even if you considered the two comments equally poor (not even close for mine) it still doesn't excuse the latter act. Racism isn't just offensive to the recipient and I think that's a point being missed. This isn't a case of 'can give it but not take it' it's a simple case of racism being wrong.

 

[CWB304]

Yeah I understand that you are and some others are arguing that there isn't a difference between racism and other forms of abuse. I get that.

But you just have to understand that your previous comments didn't come out that way, they came out justifying the racism, or at the very least, made it look like Symonds should not be upset if racist remarks come his way in return. I think that ignores the history of racism in human history.

Very few people have been enslaved, lynched or lost land for issues surrounding mother ****ing

Then you're just wasting everyone's time and you ought to stop. We've long since moved beyond the comments which you feel didn't come out the right way and we now know what he meant and his POV has been expounded upon and supported by the contributions of other posters. If you've nothing substantive to add to the discussion then leave the thread. Your last sentence is so stupid that I imagine you must be about sixteen years old.

 

[Jono]

Genuine question, why are you so set on being unbelievably grumpy to everyone on this forum?

And the point is still valid. There is no legislation and definitely no international conventions outlawing calling someone's mother fat or a whore or ugly. Sorry that's just the facts. Worldwide one is seen as less acceptable than the other, and the reason is obvious. One has resulted in far more pain, anguish and death than the other.

 

[smash84]

And the point is still valid. There is no legislation and definitely no international conventions outlawing calling someone's mother fat or a whore or ugly. Sorry that's just the facts. Worldwide one is seen as less acceptable than the other, and the reason is obvious. One has resulted in far more pain, anguish and death than the other.[/QUOTE]

This comes back to the point that Cevno mentioned and the West's history with racism.

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

Your last sentence is so stupid that I imagine you must be about sixteen years old.

Wow. When someone says something stupid to you in real life, do you often reply like this? Serious question.

I'm guessing you do, as to kerb your appetite for speaking your mind would be pandering to those apparatchiks that you're railing against?

 

[Flem274*]

Right, message for the thread.

This is a sensitive issue, but you all knew that. So, with our understanding of that fact, let's not chip in little snarks at every opportunity okay? CWB, you are being especially bad and I think it is impacting on the effectiveness of your argument, which is a shame because this is a worthy discussion.

Now, from this post on, the thread improves or it closes. Thank you.

 

[smash84]

phelgm you've ruined the thread

 

[zaremba]

Racism isn't just offensive to the recipient and I think that's a point being missed. This isn't a case of 'can give it but not take it' it's a simple case of racism being wrong.

This is what I came here to post. Racism is socially corrosive in a way that other forms of abuse are not. It is often extraordinarily offensive to the recipient. To take your example of being abused for having long hair, well that might of course be offensive to you, but having long hair is not usually something that is an inalienable and fundamental part of your identity, and your family's identity, in that same way that your race is, most especially if you come from an ethnic minority with all that carries with it.

Just my thoughts... I'm white and have short hair so the abuse I come in for is more commonly of the straightforward "you're a ****" variety which is (a) tolerable and (b) accurate.

 

[Jono]

This comes back to the point that Cevno mentioned and the West's history with racism.

Can you elaborate on that. I think I've read the Cevno post you're referring to but I'm not sure.

If what I think you're getting at is correct, I don't buy it. Set foot in Malaysia and you'll see incredible amounts of racist comments from "Malay" Malaysians against "Chinese" Malaysians. One can easily argue that the genocide massacres that occurred in Rwanda (Tutsi vs Hutu) are another example. Sure they're both black, but parts of the population were massacred based on their ethnicity.

So racism has been an issue all over the world, and hence why its universally an issue. Why its universally outlawed, and why there are groups and NGOs out there dedicated to fighting racism. Not dedicated to fighting abuse against one's mother.

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

Wasn't the Tutsi/Hutu thing a pretty much artificial construct designed by a colonial power (Belgium) in order to make their censuses easier, or something? And I believe the definitions as set out by the colonial power effectively designated one of those groups as superior to the other (anthropologically speaking) and as such, that "ethnic conflict" could be seen as a direct consequence of colonial intervention?

 

[honestbharani]

Isn't this kind of the point? You're replacing one arbitrary, subjective metric... with another arbitrary, subjective metric.

It's not necessarily the idea that racist abuse is necessarily better or worse somehow, it's subjective and cultural. It's the idea that it makes no difference that I find objectionable, that someone it's all equivalent.

There's a bit of conflation going on in this thread. I've said in the past that people too often equate sledging with gutter-mouthed abuse, which is often not the case. Telling someone who's under pressure to hold their place that they're not good enough to play at that level is absolutely designed to undermine their confidence and self-belief, yet I would find it rather extraordinary if that were defined as "abuse".

yes, I agree with that part but that is not what is being discussed here, is it? At least, it is not what I am discussing. Abusing the player and his abilities, to me, is one level of abuse. But racist slurs and abusing one's family, to me, form a level higher than that that deserves to be punished in a no-nonsense way.


The whole ****ing point here is that while I can understand why Aussies and English people would consider racist slurs worse than abusing one's family, to a typical SC player they are the same and therefore, the laws should see them at the same level. I just have a problem with the idea that the racist slurs are the worst a person can hear.. It is not so for a lot of SC players. And last time I checked, cricket is not just played by Aussies and Englishmen.