Malcolm Marshall vs Richard Hadlee

[Coronis]

There was more pressure on Hadlee in both batting and bowling.

Even if Maco had an off day, it didn’t matter much for WI. If Hadlee had an off day, NZ was surely going to lose badly.

Trying to pick out his poorest performance in a NZ win.

Contenders - 4/60 and 12 vs SL 1983, 4/108 and 33 vs Aus 1986, 4/127 and 27 vs India 1981, 0/89 and 81 (75 and 6*) in England 1983. (very crucial 75 though) Wouldn’t call any of them bad performances tbh. Probably his performance against SL mattered least.

 

[subshakerz]

Trying to pick out his poorest performance in a NZ win.

Contenders - 4/60 and 12 vs SL 1983, 4/108 and 33 vs Aus 1986, 4/127 and 27 vs India 1981, 0/89 and 81 (75 and 6*) in England 1983. (very crucial 75 though) Wouldn’t call any of them bad performances tbh. Probably his performance against SL mattered least.

Wow. He really had no backup as such.

 

[Swamp Witch Hattie]

This was the first Test of Hadlee's golden run which went from February 1978 to July 1990 (12 years 5 months). Over this time span, he bowled in 119 innings (out of a career total of 150) and in 118 of them, he was in the #1 bowling position. The innings shown in the above clip (his second bowling innings of the match) was the only bowling innings of his golden run where Hadlee was not bowling #1 (Richard Collinge did that here) and instead bowled in the #2 position.

Hadlee:







Collinge:

 

[Bolo.]

View attachment 45913

This was the first Test of Hadlee's golden run which went from February 1978 to July 1990 (12 years 5 months). Over this time span, he bowled in 119 innings (out of a career total of 150) and in 118 of them, he was in the #1 bowling position. The innings shown in the above clip (his second bowling innings of the match) was the only bowling innings of his golden run where Hadlee was not bowling #1 (Richard Collinge did that here) and instead bowled in the #2 position.

Hadlee:

View attachment 45909

View attachment 45910

View attachment 45911

Collinge:

View attachment 45912

Basically Marshall's entire career, including almost an exact date match. But taking more WPM, cheaper, and not getting dropped a whole lot on the back of poor perfomances at the start.

Posted just before Kyear decided to downgrade Hadlee to tier 2. I reckon I may have to downgrade Marshall to tier 3

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

hard to top score when your team has some of the best batman

Its easy to score big when you dont have to face most of the best bowlers.

 

[subshakerz]

Posted just before Kyear decided to downgrade Hadlee to tier 2.

What? When did he do that?

 

[sayon basak]

What? When did he do that?

So my GOAT tier is now just Maco and Pigeon.

 

[subshakerz]

Kyears tiers should be taken with a pinch of salt. They are built around securing his favorites.

 

[kyear2]

There is about a 7 RPI/Avg difference between the two with the bat and hence most will go for Hadlee here. But imo, the value of that is lower than Marshall being the greatest bowler ever with a small but clear edge to Hadlee. After Bradman and Sobers, Marshall is the guaranteed third name on my All time Xi, and it looks like it will stay that way for quite a while (until Bumrah goes on an absolute tear).
So Marshall is my pick

This was done less than a year ago, but hues someone is trying to prove a point.

This forum has an elevated view of bowling all rounders and the result of this poll was only going to go one direction, but I agree fully with your post.

Marshall is the guaranteed 3rd name of my AT team sheet. I know @Coronis goes with Gilchrist, but combined with the fact that the first two are batsman, the importance of the position and some may philosophically prefer Knott as the better keeper, I would go Marshall. There's no competition between your premier strike bowler and wicket keeper.

There's no more important role in cricket than your strike bowler, and in this any any comp not including Bradman, I'm going Marshall.

 

[kyear2]

Sobers>Hadlee>Imran>Kallis for me

In terms of raining the all rounders as cricketers?

Sobers, Hadlee, Imran, Kallis, Miller..

Overall I rate Hadlee higher than many at 6. Truly one of the greats of a game.

 

[subshakerz]

Marshall is the guaranteed 3rd name of my AT team sheet. I know @Coronis goes with Gilchrist, but combined with the fact that the first two are batsman, the importance of the position and some may philosophically prefer Knott as the better keeper, I would go Marshall. There's no competition between your premier strike bowler and wicket keeper.

You are doing the same thing with Marshall as you were falsely accusing others of doing with Tendulkar.

Giving him a mythical hallowed unimpeachable status that is beyond what he actually was.

 

[Zachary.]

Richard Hadlee's WPI -2.87 better than Rabada, Steyn, Donald etc , Economy less than Marshall and same strike rates as Mcgrath.
The ultimate bolwer.

 

[kyear2]

Sobers the Batsmen ~ Hadlee the bowler
Sobers the bowler >> Hadlee the Batsmen
Sobers the fielder >> Hadlee the fielder

The top 3 bowlers are basically on par with the BAB batsman category so around the same, through Hadlee is slightly higher ranked among the pacers than Sobers is among the bats.

The rest isn't really up for discussion.

 

[Johan]

The top 3 bowlers are basically on par with the BAB batsman category so around the same, through Hadlee is slightly higher ranked among the pacers than Sobers is among the bats.

The rest isn't really up for discussion.

there are more Batsmen than bowlers, especially on the basis of longevity as a 70 or 80 years ago, promising bowlers woild lose their career over injuries that'd be minor today. so naturally, the batsmen ranking scene is more competitive.

 

[kyear2]

Marshall was a decent enough lower order batsman to make this a very close contest. Think I'd go Hadlee but it's razor thin overall.

And that's a reasonable take as well.

Depends on how much we weigh these skills in rating.

 

[kyear2]

This is extremely close because Marshall was a genuine no8. Hadlee's batting advantage isn't substantial like it is v most bowlers.

This will also be a controversial take, but I've had no lack of those recently.

When we look at lower order batting, averages and the like. How often do we look at impact.

Maco, like we've seen Cummins of late, was more often than not likely to come in and fill the breach when required and too had some quality match winning and saving knocks.

7 rpi for at no. 8 position isn't enough for me to take someone who I believe to be the greatest bowler ever.

 

[kyear2]

Hadlee contributed 8% of total team runs almost double of Marshall contribution.
Hadlee top scored 10 times, Marshall only once.

Honestly a really ridiculous argument, and one of your worst and you've had some bad ones. So...

 

[kyear2]

Basically Marshall's entire career, including almost an exact date match. But taking more WPM, cheaper, and not getting dropped a whole lot on the back of poor perfomances at the start.

Posted just before Kyear decided to downgrade Hadlee to tier 2. I reckon I may have to downgrade Marshall to tier 3

Think Hadlee is the 3rd greatest / best bowler of all time and a top 6 cricketer of all time.

Nothing but respect.

 

[kyear2]

there are more Batsmen than bowlers, especially on the basis of longevity as a 70 or 80 years ago, promising bowlers woild lose their career over injuries that'd be minor today. so naturally, the batsmen ranking scene is more competitive.

Agree.

 

[kyear2]

Yeah, didn't know this thread existed.

He's still in that tier 1.

But in terms of arguments to be the GOAT, I've never seen an argument placed forward for it. That was the premise of that post in response to something Johan posted.