Ian Botham vs Fred Trueman

[kyear2]

I have Ambrose in the same tier as well.
Maybe higher than almost all of them but same tier.

400 wickets @ below 21, match winner and brilliant vs the best team of era, was never taken apart by anyone, and most importantly, was the best bowler in the world for half a decade.

No one in that tier possesses that resume., feel free to show me where I'm wrong.

So yeah, he's with Steyn and the two spinners.

 

[Johan]

for me, the tiers are

Best Ever
Those in realistic contention for being the GOAT bowlers

1. Malcolm Marshall
2. Glenn McGrath
3. Richard Hadlee
4. Sydney Francis Barnes

Close to GOAT
Those who are very close to the top 4 but just miss out by a bit

5. Curtly Ambrose
6. Dale Steyn

The Spinners
These guys are the three spinners I think are on quality on par with the ones below (probably below the ones that come after) but bowl so many overs that they make it over them on contribution to the team.

7. Shane Warne
8. Muthiah Muralidharan
9. Bill O Reilly

Elite ATG
Those in the conversation for some of the best ever but clearly having a flawed enough record to not really be serious candidates, lots of people in this tier.

9. Imran Khan
10. Denis Lillee/Fred Trueman
11. Denis Lillee/Fred Trueman

after that it's very messy for me between Wasim, Lindwall, Holding, Garner etc

 

[sayon basak]

I rate him slightly above Garner

That's very much fair.

 

[kyear2]

for me, the tiers are

Best Ever
Those in realistic contention for being the GOAT bowlers

1. Malcolm Marshall
2. Glenn McGrath
3. Richard Hadlee
4. Sydney Francis Barnes

Close to GOAT
Those who are very close to the top 4 but just miss out by a bit

5. Curtly Ambrose
6. Dale Steyn

The Spinners
These guys are the three spinners I think are on quality on par with the ones below (probably below the ones that come after) but bowl so many overs that they make it over them on contribution to the team.

7. Shane Warne
8. Muthiah Muralidharan
9. Bill O Reilly

Elite ATG
Those in the conversation for some of the best ever but clearly having a flawed enough record to not really be serious candidates, lots of people in this tier.

9. Imran Khan
10. Denis Lillee/Fred Trueman
11. Denis Lillee/Fred Trueman

after that it's very messy for me between Wasim, Lindwall, Holding, Garner etc

You numbering is off, Imran should be 10. Etc etc.

I don't know how Donald can be left off that list, and don't agree that Holding nor Donald are in any way a tier below Imran and Lillee and definely above Truman. Those two in particular are right there with Lillee and Imran.

And as zi ve said in another post, I can't find a single article, list, reference, interview or anything where Hadlee is called the best ever, or the best of his era. Not a single one. I've never even seen anyone make the argument.

So my GOAT tier is now just Maco and Pigeon.

And me personally, I just can't place Barnes up there.

 

[sayon basak]

Don't get how Hadlee and McGrath can be in different tiers.

 

[kyear2]

Don't get how Hadlee and McGrath can be in different tiers.

More of a sub tier, but understood.

I just have literally never seen, read or heard anyone make the argument.

Not even guys on his own team.

 

[Swamp Witch Hattie]

And as zi ve said in another post, I can't find a single article, list, reference, interview or anything where Hadlee is called the best ever, or the best of his era. Not a single one. I've never even seen anyone make the argument.

So my GOAT tier is now just Maco and Pigeon.

As I posted here, Marshall did. He even used the word "undoubtedly".

Bradman himself said, "No bowler I’ve seen had better control of seam and swing.” (I actually heard him say it on a radio broadcast many years ago)

Sobers wrote of Hadlee in his autobiography, "I rated him right up there among the very best":



Greenidge and Haynes thought highly of him:

from https://www.thecricketer.com/topics/features/gordon_greenidge_desmond_haynes_interview.html:



Viswanath has said he found Hadlee to be his most difficult opponent (this was before Hadlee was even at his best):

from https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/c...the-most-gundappa-renganath-viswanath-388923/:



Gavaskar has said that facing Hadlee was his toughest test (again, this was before Hadlee was even at his best):

from https://www.hindustantimes.com/cric...test-career/story-b4K438NdbyzxM4VJN0nsXK.html:

 

[capt_Luffy]

As I posted here, Marshall did. He even used the word "undoubtedly".

Bradman himself said, "No bowler I’ve seen had better control of seam and swing.” (I actually heard him say it on a radio broadcast many years ago)

Sobers wrote of Hadlee in his autobiography, "I rated him right up there among the very best":

View attachment 45916

Greenidge and Haynes thought highly of him:

from https://www.thecricketer.com/topics/features/gordon_greenidge_desmond_haynes_interview.html:

View attachment 45917

Viswanath has said he found Hadlee to be his most difficult opponent (this was before Hadlee was even at his best):

from https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/c...the-most-gundappa-renganath-viswanath-388923/:

View attachment 45918

Gavaskar has said that facing Hadlee was his toughest test (again, this was before Hadlee was even at his best):

from https://www.hindustantimes.com/cric...test-career/story-b4K438NdbyzxM4VJN0nsXK.html:

View attachment 45919

So no one but just some no names in Don Bradman, Garry Sobers, Malcolm Marshall, Sunil Gavaskar alongside Gordon Greenidge, Desmond Haynes and Gundappa Viswanath......

 

[Coronis]

As I posted here, Marshall did. He even used the word "undoubtedly".

Bradman himself said, "No bowler I’ve seen had better control of seam and swing.” (I actually heard him say it on a radio broadcast many years ago)

Sobers wrote of Hadlee in his autobiography, "I rated him right up there among the very best":

View attachment 45916

Greenidge and Haynes thought highly of him:

from https://www.thecricketer.com/topics/features/gordon_greenidge_desmond_haynes_interview.html:

View attachment 45917

Viswanath has said he found Hadlee to be his most difficult opponent (this was before Hadlee was even at his best):

from https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/c...the-most-gundappa-renganath-viswanath-388923/:

View attachment 45918

Gavaskar has said that facing Hadlee was his toughest test (again, this was before Hadlee was even at his best):

from https://www.hindustantimes.com/cric...test-career/story-b4K438NdbyzxM4VJN0nsXK.html:

View attachment 45919

Greenidge throwing shade at Botham.

 

[Swamp Witch Hattie]

So no one but just some no names in Don Bradman, Garry Sobers, Malcolm Marshall, Sunil Gavaskar alongside Gordon Greenidge, Desmond Haynes and Gundappa Viswanath......

Luffy, I know you're not a big fan of the ICC ratings system (neither am I for that matter) but I thought that you still might like to see (if you haven't already) a couple of attractive videos which show how the ICC Test bowling #1 ranking has changed from 1970 to 2020 (half a century!) and which also show the number of days of the most dominant bowlers (use Full screen!):

After 1990, Marshall accumulated 63 days before Hadlee went on to a maximum of 147 days. Hadlee was then dropped from the rankings (a few weeks after his 86th and last Test). After this, Marshall automatically assumed the #1 position and went on to a maximum of 434 days (a day for every one of Kapil's Test wickets!). Up until Hadlee's last appearance in the rankings, only he and Marshall had been ranked #1 throughout 1990 so together, they occupied that position for 63 + 147 = 210 days. And this makes sense because Hadlee's last day as #1 was 29 July:

29 July:



30 July:



and if you add up the number of days in the non-leap year 1990 up to and including July 29, you get

31 + 28 + 31 + 30 + 31 + 30 + 29 = 210! (I don't mean 210 factorial!)

It looks like whoever made up these videos did a very good job with them!

Hadlee was #1 for a total of 1532 (from the first video) + 147 = 1679 days

Marshall was #1 for a total of 589 (from the first video) + 434 = 1023 days

When their active bowling careers overlapped:

Hadlee: 1679 days

Marshall: 589 + 63 = 652 days

After Hadlee was removed from the rankings, Marshall had the advantage as Hadlee was no longer there. When their active bowling careers overlapped, Hadlee had the advantage as he was older and was able to ascend to the #1 position first (but only by about nine months as he was a late maturer: 13/3/84 cf. 11/12/84).

Bowlers with the greatest occupancy (not exhaustive or up-to-date):

Steyn: 2343 days

Ambrose: 1719 days

Murali: 1711 days

Hadlee: 1679 days

Underwood: > 1609 days (as he was also #1 before 1970, first becoming #1 on 25/8/69)

McGrath: 1306 days

Marshall: 1023 days

P.S.: please let me know if I've stuffed up my arithmetic!

 

[The Sean]

Absolute wild that Colin Croft spent more days as the number one ranked bowler than any of Holding, Garner or Roberts.

 

[Swamp Witch Hattie]

Absolute wild that Colin Croft spent more days as the number one ranked bowler than any of Holding, Garner or Roberts.

ICC Test bowling rating = [complicated mathematical formula] + 100 x number of times flicked bails off stumps + 200 x number of times barged Fred Goodall

 

[kyear2]

As I posted here, Marshall did. He even used the word "undoubtedly".

Bradman himself said, "No bowler I’ve seen had better control of seam and swing.” (I actually heard him say it on a radio broadcast many years ago)

Sobers wrote of Hadlee in his autobiography, "I rated him right up there among the very best":

View attachment 45916

Greenidge and Haynes thought highly of him:

from https://www.thecricketer.com/topics/features/gordon_greenidge_desmond_haynes_interview.html:

View attachment 45917

Viswanath has said he found Hadlee to be his most difficult opponent (this was before Hadlee was even at his best):

from https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/c...the-most-gundappa-renganath-viswanath-388923/:

View attachment 45918

Gavaskar has said that facing Hadlee was his toughest test (again, this was before Hadlee was even at his best):

from https://www.hindustantimes.com/cric...test-career/story-b4K438NdbyzxM4VJN0nsXK.html:

View attachment 45919

I never said no one rated him among the very best, he undoubtedly was.

 

[kyear2]

So no one but just some no names in Don Bradman, Garry Sobers, Malcolm Marshall, Sunil Gavaskar alongside Gordon Greenidge, Desmond Haynes and Gundappa Viswanath......

I was very specific.

I've seen articles, interviews, punditry calling Marshall, Wasim, Lillee, McGrath, O'Reilly, Lindwall etc the best of their eras or the best of all time.

Even on ranking lists etc, very few have him as high as even I do.

I'm not suggesting he's not elite or top 3, not for a second. All I said was that I've hardly seen the argument made saying he was the very best.

Not trying to downgrade or even intimate that he was never anything but among the very best.

Even when selecting my AT XI I make reference of the fact that Hadlee has a better argument than Wasim to be there.

 

[Swamp Witch Hattie]

I never said no one rated him among the very best, he undoubtedly was.

You specifically wrote, "I can't find ... anything where Hadlee is called ... the best of his era.". Marshall called him that. He said "undoubtedly". He knew the man from playing seven Tests against each other and from years and years of shared county cricket. Are you disagreeing with him? Are you saying that he didn't say that despite the evidence of your own eyes? Are you saying that you didn't write what you wrote despite the evidence of our own eyes? Bradman made a statement which implies that Hadlee, at least in one sense, was the best (or equal-best). Are you disagreeing with Bradman?

 

[Coronis]

You specifically wrote, "I can't find ... anything where Hadlee is called ... the best of his era.". Marshall called him that. He said "undoubtedly". He knew the man from playing seven Tests against each other and from years and years of shared county cricket. Are you disagreeing with him? Are you saying that he didn't say that despite the evidence of your own eyes? Are you saying that you didn't write what you wrote despite the evidence of our own eyes? Bradman made a statement which implies that Hadlee, at least in one sense, was the best (or equal-best). Are you disagreeing with Bradman?

On my how the peer worm turns.

 

[kyear2]

You specifically wrote, "I can't find ... anything where Hadlee is called ... the best of his era.". Marshall called him that. He said "undoubtedly". He knew the man from playing seven Tests against each other and from years and years of shared county cricket. Are you disagreeing with him? Are you saying that he didn't say that despite the evidence of your own eyes? Are you saying that you didn't write what you wrote despite the evidence of our own eyes? Bradman made a statement which implies that Hadlee, at least in one sense, was the best (or equal-best). Are you disagreeing with Bradman?

As I said on the other thread, or is it this one. I've lost track.

I've seen arguments and comments for Lillee, Marshall, Wasim, McGrath, Lindwall, O'Reilly etc being the greatest at some point.

From all anecdotal and written evidence the crown of the greatest was passed from Lindwall to Lillee to Marshall, even the title of best in the world was passed from Lillee to Marshall and he held it until Ambrose took said mantle.

Even with regards to all time XI's I've never seen any with Hadlee, not the big ones like Wisden or Cricinfo, or the ones by individuals or publications. Years ago I compiled 20 teams and he didn't make a single one.