Make Room Fab Four - Now it's the ***y Seven

[Salamuddin]

Conway is being grossly overrated on these forums. Think he will be a decent player but no where near atg or even atvg level.

 

[Daemon]

De Kock’s a reverse Anderson in that he only favours the Kookaburra

 

[StephenZA]

That's cos Pant is clearly better than QDK if we're talking tests (especially if we're talking tests and potential), unless we're going by T20 franchise games.

As I said it amuses me...

 

[StephenZA]

De Kock’s a reverse Anderson in that he only favours the Kookaburra

Considering he just had his best series against the Duke... don't think that holds up.

 

[trundler]

De Kock did spend about 3 years being pedestrian prior to that series TBF. I remember how he burst onto the scene with consecutive tons in ODIs and looked so dominant so do think there's a case for not being too hasty with Pant.

 

[Daemon]

Considering he just had his best series against the Duke... don't think that holds up.

Yeah fair, forgot WI use them too

 

[_00_deathscar]

As I said it amuses me...

Not really sure what the argument for QDK is here. As a bat he's good for a keeper but considering he's played enough games now and is late 20s, he's shown nothing to really elevate him to the standards people are talking about here.

For all of Pant's madness (which may/may not work, there will be horrible lows but my god there will be some highs), there's a reason he's being talked about at the level he is. Have a look at the some of his innings again, the scores when he came in, the bowlers, and the conditions etc.

 

[_00_deathscar]

De Kock did spend about 3 years being pedestrian prior to that series TBF. I remember how he burst onto the scene with consecutive tons in ODIs and looked so dominant so do think there's a case for not being too hasty with Pant.

Yes, ODIs - not tests.

Pant looks relatively ordinary in ODIs and LOs (until the last series anyway).

 

[Shady Slim]

i would say re QDK he's got the bolts in the bank historically, pant has the bolts in the bank recently, but, that said if QDK can continue on the run he showed in the windies tests he'll go back to being numero uno

 

[Daemon]

Anyways Pant will definitely struggle when there’s movement from what we’ve seen so far. Pace, bounce, dry, slow, turning wickets etc he seems to be able to deal with pretty well.

 

[Teja.]

there's a very credible argument he's a great subcontinent bat who's played some excellent innings against underperforming aus attacks by playing meme Dave Warner Cricket 2K14 and getting very very lucky

That would be a very bad argument though. I agree that he might struggle when there is a ton of movement like in England and NZ but the idea that he got lucky in Australia is nonsense. If he was getting lucky in playing a couple of ATG innings, his other innings would show that he was out of depth. He has scored 23 or more runs in every single innings he has played in Australia, there's literally zero times he has not got at least a start over 12 innings and 7 tests. That is more consistent than every most top order batsman despite him playing a role where such consistency us harder to achieve.

He averages 62.4 in Australia over 7 tests with 600+ runs against an ATG Australia attack. The argument that it was an underperforming Australian attack is a joke too. The recent 2020/21 BG series in Australia had 2 centuries in 4 tests and had much, much help for bowlers than some of the shirtfronts Kohli and Kane made runs in which had more centuries in a game than that. If you saw the Gabba test 5th day, you'd know Hazelwood and particularly Cummins were absolutely breathing fire at various points when Pant was still batting and Pant navigated them just fine.

Cummins is the most consistent and best bowler in the world. Pant averages 62 against him in Australia which is 10 more than any other batsman with 100+ runs against him. Again, this includes 2 ATG match/series defining knocks on day 5. He was India's leading run scorer in their most historic away series win while batting at No. 6. At this point, saying Pant got lucky in Australia is about the same level as saying Lara got lucky to average 86 in Sri Lanka imo.

 

[Daemon]

But he slogs Teja, it must be luck

 

[StephenZA]

I am not saying that QDK should be part of a Fab 4 or Fab 7 or whatever shitty name people want to call it... he does have the ability but I never thought he had the temperament. First signs he may become that good was the first innings recently in WI, where he showed good composure and played a well paced innings. QDK struggled for a few years on and off now, particularly in sub-continent recently. But that has as much to do with the teams struggles as his own personal struggles.

What does amuse me is that somehow Pant has become part of the fab discussion, and shows how much runs by and against the big 3 is more important in rating players than just about any other metric.

 

[Teja.]

What does amuse me is that somehow Pant has become part of the fab discussion, and shows how much runs by and against the is 3 is more important in rating players than just about any other metric.

I mean, we are talking about the top 7 batsmen in the world which would mean at least 10-12 contenders. Hardly exclusive territory.

 

[_00_deathscar]

I am not saying that QDK should be part of a Fab 4 or Fab 7 or whatever ****ty name people want to call it... he does have the ability but I never thought he had the temperament. First signs he may become that good was the first innings recently in WI, where he showed good composure and played a well paced innings. QDK struggled for a few years on and off now, particularly in sub-continent recently. But that has as much to do with the teams struggles as his own personal struggles.

What does amuse me is that somehow Pant has become part of the fab discussion, and shows how much runs by and against the big 3 is more important in rating players than just about any other metric.

Weirdly, that’s (and NZ would replace us since we can’t play ourselves) is more or less the only teams he’s really played with the exception of a couple of tests against Windies

He’s played 30% or something of his tests to date vs Australia

 

[Teja.]

But he slogs Teja, it must be luck

Everyone thinks Pant is a jabroni until he babysits your kids on the 5th day and wins a test on his own.

 

[OverratedSanity]

QdK had an even more impressive run of games at the start of his career than pant is having right now. Looks like he's starting to get back some of that old form now so it's definitely close atm. Pant has played some truly outrageous innings though which might have tilted it in his favour for most people but as the years go on obviously some weaknesses might get revealed as is the case with most players.

 

[sunilz]

Smith must feel embarrassed being compared to players who average 10 less than him.

This is like comparing McGrath/Marshall to Courtney Walsh.

 

[StephenZA]

I really was not trying to start a Pant vs QDK discussion... I was more amused that Pant is being included in the same sphere as Williamson, Kohli Smith etc but people ignoring QDK.

Personally I would not be putting any of these players in some sort of great batsmen at the moment. And I am not anywhere as enthralled by Conway or Labuschagne as some others are. Good batsmen but not what I consider as great (/fabulous) or whatever you want to call it.

 

[Shady Slim]

That would be a very bad argument though. I agree that he might struggle when there is a ton of movement like in England and NZ but the idea that he got lucky in Australia is nonsense. If he was getting lucky in playing a couple of ATG innings, his other innings would show that he was out of depth. He has scored 23 or more runs in every single innings he has played in Australia, there's literally zero times he has not got at least a start over 12 innings and 7 tests. That is more consistent than every most top order batsman despite him playing a role where such consistency us harder to achieve.

He averages 62.4 in Australia over 7 tests with 600+ runs against an ATG Australia attack. The argument that it was an underperforming Australian attack is a joke too. The recent 2020/21 BG series in Australia had 2 centuries in 4 tests and had much, much help for bowlers than some of the shirtfronts Kohli and Kane made runs in which had more centuries in a game than that. If you saw the Gabba test 5th day, you'd know Hazelwood and particularly Cummins were absolutely breathing fire at various points when Pant was still batting and Pant navigated them just fine.

Cummins is the most consistent and best bowler in the world. Pant averages 62 against him in Australia which is 10 more than any other batsman with 100+ runs against him. Again, this includes 2 ATG match/series defining knocks on day 5. He was India's leading run scorer in their most historic away series win while batting at No. 6. At this point, saying Pant got lucky in Australia is about the same level as saying Lara got lucky to average 86 in Sri Lanka imo.

you've got to remember though i approach this from thinking most knocks in australia since twenty fourteen or so have been mickey mouse knocks that aren't worthy of much mention (though for an away batsman to do what pant did is far more impressive than when oz bats rack up said scores).

unironically like the best innings played in australia since 2014 was smith in hobart first innings when the saffers toured.