KL Rahul vs Ollie Pope

[Johan]

Two dissapointments

 

[BazBall21]

Oh God

 

[Johan]

Oh God

my reaction when either of them bat

 

[BazBall21]

my reaction when either of them bat

Yeah, both losers. KL slightly better I think. A few good series' and knocks in tough conditions v good attacks.

Would say time is on Pope's side but I just don't think he's going to make it. He has a lot of weaknesses like losing balance when a ball nips back towards his stumps at decent pace and lacks the tenacity to minimise these problems.

 

[BazBall21]

I think Pope makes it to the Ashes, and inevitably failing there is where England might finally lose patience.

 

[Johan]

Yeah, both losers. KL slightly better I think. A few good series' and knocks in tough conditions v good attacks.

Would say time is on Pope's side but I just don't think he's going to make it. He has a lot of weaknesses like losing balance when a ball nips back towards his stumps and lacks the tenacity to minimise these problems.

Yeah think Rahul's a little ahead because of match winning tons in England and South Africa and some quality tons like the 149 in Chef's retirement match and the 101 earlier this year in genuinely challenging conditions.

tho Pope not far behind due to the magnificent 196 and the great 135* in South Africa in 2020, Rahul just seems to have a higher volume of good innings so far.

Time definitely on Pope's side, he is 26 while Rahul 32, Hope he is able to work on his game quick though otherwise Ashes 2025 is definitely the end of the road for him.

 

[BazBall21]

Yeah think Rahul's a little ahead because of match winning tons in England and South Africa and some quality tons like the 149 in Chef's retirement match and the 101 earlier this year in genuinely challenging conditions.

tho Pope not far behind due to the magnificent 196 and the great 135* in South Africa in 2020, Rahul just seems to have a higher volume of good innings so far.

Time definitely on Pope's side, he is 26 while Rahul 32, Hope he is able to work on his game quick though otherwise Ashes 2025 is definitely the end of the road for him.

KL had a good series in the 2017 BGT too. He is mediocre but would still frequently appear if we looked at a combined list between the two of top 5 series or top 10 knocks so far.

Pope has pretty much been the worst kind of FTB. Someone who generally only scores runs on flat pitches or against mediocre attacks and only produces those runs sporadically because he's such a liability at the start of his innings. His median score is diabolical.

You want a batsman to either have a high performance threshold v quality attacks or perform very consistently at the high end of their threshold; combining the two is the ideal of course. Pope seems incapable of both. I don't think having both Crawley and Pope in the top 3 is sustainable. I don't see either ever being consistent, and England seemingly not valuing consistency from top 3 batsmen in test cricket is folly.

 

[Silver Silva]

KL Rahul would benefit a lot from a Bazball approach , I believe he is very talented but is often timid at the crease , when he looks to score he looks a different player , often he gets out playing conservatively or feels he has to do so. Think Duckett had the same problem before being reintroduced into Bazball set up

 

[BazBall21]

Tbh I think tentativeness is within his nature and Bazball might just lead to some muddled shot selection for him.

 

[Johan]

KL had a good series in the 2017 BGT too. He is mediocre but would still frequently appear if we looked at a combined list between the two of top 5 series or top 10 knocks so far.

Pope has pretty much been the worst kind of FTB. Someone who generally only scores runs on flat pitches or against mediocre attacks and only produces those runs sporadically because he's such a liability at the start of his innings. His median score is diabolical.

You want a batsman to either have a high performance threshold v quality attacks or perform very consistently at the high end of their threshold; combining the two is the ideal of course. Pope seems incapable of both. I don't think having both Crawley and Pope in the top 3 is sustainable. I don't see either ever being consistent, and England seemingly not valuing consistency from top 3 batsmen in test cricket is folly.

definitely, Rahul has no concept of consistency (just like Pope) but has some good knocks and tours to his name that will make him more of a memorable player than someone who would average higher than him, 2017 BGT combined with a couple England and SA knocks being the prime example, I'm sure I'm missing something too.

Agreed about Pope, it's honestly time to move on, if we look at the successful number 3s of last 10 years we will see they're mostly players with solid technique who are capable of holding the crease and batting for hours, such as Azhar Ali, Marnus Labuschagne and Cheteshwar Pujara, Pope is not that at all and if he doesn't perform in the Ashes it's definitely time to move on from him, Crawley probably always gets the nod over Pope, considering he performed in both the 2023 Ashes and the 2024 India tour and he's a good opener honestly.

 

[Silver Silva]

Tbh I think tentativeness is within his nature and Bazball might just lead to some muddled shot selection for him.

The guy can smash bowling attacks apart when he let's his hands go or is given freedom to do so.
Look at his ODI record , when opening the batting his SR is 79 from 23 innings

But the same player at no.5 has a SR of 95 from 30 innings..

He also has 2 T20 international hundreds , the lad underestimates his scoring abilities and worries too much about what others think

 

[Prince EWS]

All Pope all the time.

 

[BazBall21]

definitely, Rahul has no concept of consistency (just like Pope) but has some good knocks and tours to his name that will make him more of a memorable player than someone who would average higher than him, 2017 BGT combined with a couple England and SA knocks being the prime example, I'm sure I'm missing something too.

Agreed about Pope, it's honestly time to move on, if we look at the successful number 3s of last 10 years we will see they're mostly players with solid technique who are capable of holding the crease and batting for hours, such as Azhar Ali, Marnus Labuschagne and Cheteshwar Pujara, Pope is not that at all and if he doesn't perform in the Ashes it's definitely time to move on from him, Crawley probably always gets the nod over Pope, considering he performed in both the 2023 Ashes and the 2024 India tour and he's a good opener honestly.

To be fair finding an effective no3 is a traditional problem for England so I wouldn't necessarily say Crawley opening means he's harder to replace but yeah he has a bit more scope v quality attacks and an ability to remove the best bowler from the attack which Pope doesn't really have. I would still like to see Crawley kick on though. He can't live off the 2023 ashes forever.

And yeah Pope never convinced me as a 3 and that's the only place they can fit him in. There has been no real improvement since his return at the beginning of the Stokes/McCullum era really. The English duke balls changing in 2022 and the Ireland double hundred just make his average in that time a bit prettier than the few years before. Is he a better player than he was in 2021? It's marginal if he is, and nothing about him suggests he's going to turn a corner long term.

 

[Kenneth Viljoen]

Pope has done quite well at No.3 for England averaging over 40 . Better player in my opinion

 

[Johan]

To be fair finding an effective no3 is a traditional problem for England so I wouldn't necessarily say Crawley opening means he's harder to replace but yeah he has a bit more scope v quality attacks and an ability to remove the best bowler from the attack which Pope doesn't really have. I would still like to see Crawley kick on though. He can't live off the 2023 ashes forever.

And yeah Pope never convinced me as a 3 and that's the only place they can fit him in. There has been no real improvement since his return at the beginning of the Stokes/McCullum era really. The English duke balls changing in 2022 and the Ireland double hundred just make his average in that time a bit prettier than the few years before. Is he a better player than he was in 2021? It's marginal if he is, and nothing about him suggests he's going to turn a corner long term.

Oh certainly, Crawley will probably go big soon again, I feel like English top three (bar Duckett) have really capitalized on the 2022-2023 English wickets which were more "aussie-like" (per Stokes's request for Ashes 2023 pitches) and easier to bat on and are kind of being exposed in 2024 where the pitches are more akin to traditional English pitches, though Crawley's 189 and work against Bumrah gives me faith in his capabilities against pace, Pope...well, doubtful.

and Yeah, I don't think Pope has improved, 2022 and 2023 were a bit of a relief giver after the horrendous 2019-2021 conditions and that's why Pope was able to score decently there (40+ avg) but 2024 being more in line with how England is, he is back to his usual low 30s with occasional good knocks style of play

 

[BazBall21]

Oh certainly, Crawley will probably go big soon again, I feel like English top three (bar Duckett) have really capitalized on the 2022-2023 English wickets which were more "aussie-like" (per Stokes's request for Ashes 2023 pitches) and easier to bat on and are kind of being exposed in 2024 where the pitches are more akin to traditional English pitches, though Crawley's 189 and work against Bumrah gives me faith in his capabilities against pace, Pope...well, doubtful.

and Yeah, I don't think Pope has improved, 2022 and 2023 were a bit of a relief giver after the horrendous 2019-2021 conditions and that's why Pope was able to score decently there (40+ avg) but 2024 being more in line with how England is, he is back to his usual low 30s with occasional good knocks style of play

Duckett is good at getting scores, but below par at going big/setting games up. I don't see him working in Australia too. He doesn't leave on length and isn't a very good puller so back of a length/short deliveries coming back into him from RTW will cause problems.

 

[Johan]

Duckett is good at getting scores, but below par at going big/setting games up. I don't see him working in Australia too. He doesn't leave on length and isn't a very good puller so back of a length/short deliveries coming back into him from RTW will cause problems.

I can see Duckett getting some runs in Sydney and getting some starts, otherwise if we're to win anything down under, it's going to entirely be on Root/Brook/Stokes imo, otherwise agreed.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Brook and J Smith will be key I think. Stokes has shown signs of declining but will probably play one great innings. Top 4 should struggle in those conditions.

 

[Johan]

Crawley and Root outperformed Brook in the 2023 Ashes, it should be close for the 2025 Ashes as well

 

[GIMH]

Brook and J Smith will be key I think. Stokes has shown signs of declining but will probably play one great innings. Top 4 should struggle in those conditions.

Well it had been a couple of weeks since player comparisons had decided to remind everyone he hates Joe Root so I guess it had to be done a bit more subtly than usual