Kapil Dev vs Ryan Harris

[subshakerz]

This is some moderate-level stats manipulation but it still shows that Kapil was at least close to Harris' level for relatively extended periods which is more than I thought tbh

Fair enough but the tests they dont count in between in 82 include poor returns in England and Pakistan, which may be a reason why he wasnt as highly rated in that period.

 

[subshakerz]

So you're saying the peaks are insufficiently-sized?

Peaks are those phases in a players' career when they are at the top of their game and vary in size depending on player, but they can still fail during that time, like Ponting in India during his. Otherwise you might as well filter out only the good performances in a player's career regardless of when.

 

[TheJediBrah]

So you're saying the peaks are insufficiently-sized?

my 2c. Taking chunks of a larger career to match a shorter career and saying "look, same stats, just as good" is not a fair comparison or a legitimate representation. Players returns vary during a career and for any career of decent length you will be able to find shorter periods where performances were much higher than the mean for that player depending on where you decide to start and finish. It can be based on things like opposition & conditions, not just form. It doesn't mean that player was just as good during that time, it means that you found a time period of the career where their statistical returns were above their career mean (though it usually means they were bowling/batting better in that period, especially if it's a period of many years).

 

[subshakerz]

my 2c. Taking chunks of a larger career to match a shorter career and saying "look, same stats, just as good" is not a fair comparison or a legitimate representation. Players returns vary during a career and for any career of decent length you will be able to find shorter periods where performances were much higher than the mean for that player depending on where you decide to start and finish. It can be based on things like opposition & conditions, not just form. It doesn't mean that player was just as good during that time, it means that you found a time period of the career where their statistical returns were above their career mean (though it usually means they were bowling/batting better in that period, especially if it's a period of many years).

Agreed.

By the way, Harris was really struggling with injuries in his last year of cricket. If you exclude that, he averages 21 with 93 wickets in 21 tests, which I guess trumps Kapil's selected stats. But its not a good way to compare.

All-round records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

 

[Xix2565]

Bit rich to complain about stats manipulation with Kapil fans with the arguments for Harris being better.

 

[sunilz]

Wish Kapil was shameless enough to skip matches/series while his team was getting blanked.

Ryan Harris during his so called peak missed 8 tests in IND/ UAE (2010,13,14) and Aus lost all those 8 tests.
He also missed last 2 tests in Ashes 2010/11 both of which Aus lost by an innings

He also missed last 2 tests of SA tour to Aus in 2012 when Aus lost test series at home.

So while Johnson, Siddle and Hilfenhaus took hit to their bowling average Harris was enjoying his life at Bondi beach. And this guy is better than Kapil Dev who missed only 1 test in his 16 year career.

So now playing and taking a hit to your average is worse than enjoying your life at Bondi beach.

 

[Daemon]

Wish Kapil was shameless enough to skip matches/series while his team was getting blanked.

Ryan Harris during his so called peak missed 8 tests in IND/ UAE (2010,13,14) and Aus lost all those 8 tests.
He also missed last 2 tests in Ashes 2010/11 both of which Aus lost by an innings

He also missed last 2 tests of SA tour to Aus in 2012 when Aus lost test series at home.

So while Johnson, Siddle and Hilfenhaus took hit to their bowling average Harris was enjoying his life at Bondi beach. And this guy is better than Kapil Dev who missed only 1 test in his 16 year career.

So now playing and taking a hit to your average is worse than enjoying your life at Bondi beach.

Wow, this goes to show how important Harris was for his side. Without him Australia would've lost a lot more tests. Kapil played so much but India barely won anything.

 

[subshakerz]

Wish Kapil was shameless enough to skip matches/series while his team was getting blanked.

Ryan Harris during his so called peak missed 8 tests in IND/ UAE (2010,13,14) and Aus lost all those 8 tests.
He also missed last 2 tests in Ashes 2010/11 both of which Aus lost by an innings

He also missed last 2 tests of SA tour to Aus in 2012 when Aus lost test series at home.

So while Johnson, Siddle and Hilfenhaus took hit to their bowling average Harris was enjoying his life Bondi beach. And this guy is better than Kapil Dev who missed only 1 test in his 16 year career.

So now playing and taking a hit to your average is worse than enjoying your life at Bondi beach.

Missed or was injured? No doubt, Kapil's fitness is a point in his favor.

Would you agree that if Harris played and performed in those tests and ended up playing around 40 tests overall, he would be better than Kapil?

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Kapil Dev who missed only 1 test in his 16 year career.

This is really impressive if it’s true

 

[sunilz]

Missed or was injured? No doubt, Kapil's fitness is a point in his favor.

Would you agree that if Harris played and performed in those tests and ended up playing around 40 tests overall, he would be better than Kapil?

If he had played 40 tests his average would have been 30 not 23.
Most of the tests he missed were extremely high scoring.

 

[harsh.ag]

my 2c. Taking chunks of a larger career to match a shorter career and saying "look, same stats, just as good" is not a fair comparison or a legitimate representation. Players returns vary during a career and for any career of decent length you will be able to find shorter periods where performances were much higher than the mean for that player depending on where you decide to start and finish. It can be based on things like opposition & conditions, not just form. It doesn't mean that player was just as good during that time, it means that you found a time period of the career where their statistical returns were above their career mean (though it usually means they were bowling/batting better in that period, especially if it's a period of many years).

Harris' whole career is almost a cherry pick. Even at his absolute peak of 5 years, he played only 27 tests and missed many. He just wasn't a proper international test bowler because of his fitness issues.

In the same period, Johnson, Siddle and Lyon played 43, 45 and 51 tests each.

 

[subshakerz]

Harris' whole career is almost a cherry pick. Even at his absolute peak of 5 years, he played only 27 tests and missed many. He just wasn't a proper international test bowler because of his fitness issues.

In the same period, Johnson, Siddle and Lyon played 43, 45 and 51 tests each.

Dequalifying Harris due to being injury-prone is a fair point, would apply to Bond too.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Harris' whole career is almost a cherry pick.

Of course it is. As has been beaten into the ground already in this thread, he was terrible for most of his domestic career

edit: misunderstood your post, but playing fewer games due to sporadically missing tests with injury isn't by any definition a "cherry-pick"

 

[Jayro]

Imran did.

Shakur Rana used to quaff LBW"s with lunch it was shamelessly blatant.

 

[harsh.ag]

Of course it is. As has been beaten into the ground already in this thread, he was terrible for most of his domestic career

edit: misunderstood your post, but playing fewer games due to sporadically missing tests with injury isn't by any definition a "cherry-pick"

It is in context when he is being compared to a guy who missed 1 test in his entire career and people are being accused of cherry picking from that guy's career.

 

[rtramdas]

Kapil’s batting SR was absurd. Several rampaging knocks.

yes ...... to score 5248 @ 81-82.5str: in the time period where King Viv(GOAT for many after a certain Bradman) scored 8540@70...
that deserves huge weightage...

 

[Shri]

Wish Kapil was shameless enough to skip matches/series while his team was getting blanked.

Ryan Harris during his so called peak missed 8 tests in IND/ UAE (2010,13,14) and Aus lost all those 8 tests.
He also missed last 2 tests in Ashes 2010/11 both of which Aus lost by an innings

He also missed last 2 tests of SA tour to Aus in 2012 when Aus lost test series at home.

So while Johnson, Siddle and Hilfenhaus took hit to their bowling average Harris was enjoying his life at Bondi beach. And this guy is better than Kapil Dev who missed only 1 test in his 16 year career.

So now playing and taking a hit to your average is worse than enjoying your life at Bondi beach.

saved me some typing thx

 

[rtramdas]

And frankly nor should they. He had a few decent years when he scrubbed the ball dry with bottle tops, then reverted to basically being pretty average again. The extent to which Imran cheated is always glossed over here for some bizarre reason. It's an open secret among blokes who played with and against him at every level. The man set a standard for ball tampering which has never been surpassed.

well said .... the number of people who have given testimonies directly or indirectly associated with 'Imran's tampering' is massive, infact would come around 15. I once came across an article in which even Shahbaz Sheriff (current Pakistan PM) was seen accusing Imran of ball tampering.
On another instance, came across a utube channel in which one Afghan minister was seen making fun of this Imran's expertise. All these meant Imran's expertise was globally acclaimed.

 

[Flem274*]

Harris' whole career is almost a cherry pick. Even at his absolute peak of 5 years, he played only 27 tests and missed many. He just wasn't a proper international test bowler because of his fitness issues.

In the same period, Johnson, Siddle and Lyon played 43, 45 and 51 tests each.

he won tests, so he is a proper international bowler. you can't just watch a bloke win games and average 23 and pretend like he wasn't a proper bowler. that's internet nerd checkbox lord stuff that doesn't actually win real games of cricket.

harris was at worst the 3rd best of his mini era (i put him 2nd) and comfortably makes the list of top tier pace bowlers i've seen (mcgrath, cummins, harris, gillespie, haze, steyn, pollock, philander, rabada, bond, bumrah, anderson, shoaib) and makes the best australian side i've seen (though gillespie and haze are a good shout).

like, what kind of person thinks siddle is a proper test bowler but harris wasn't? they're both proper bowlers because they took test wickets in that role man.

 

[Coronis]

well said .... the number of people who have given testimonies directly or indirectly associated with 'Imran's tampering' is massive, infact would come around 15. I once came across an article in which even Shahbaz Sheriff (current Pakistan PM) was seen accusing Imran of ball tampering.
On another instance, came across a utube channel in which one Afghan minister was seen making fun of this Imran's expertise. All these meant Imran's expertise was globally acclaimed.

Oh no the current Pakistan PM accused the former Pakistan PM of ball tampering?! That settles it.