Jasprit Bumrah vs Malcolm Marshall

[kyear2]

Is NZ pitches were friendly for bowling an excuse for Sobers and Richards and even Lara to an extent? I wonder…

Ofc the same friendly pitches that Marshall completely failed to exploit.

Nah.

Don't have a clue why Sobers failed over there.

Marshall was injured that series.

 

[kyear2]

Ah yes the excuses pop out only for certain players. I forgot about that.

The fact that you can't separate excuses from explanations is concerning.

Marshall was legitimately unfit and had to play because one bowler retired and the other returned home unfit.

And no one is offering excuses for Sobers.

The best I've ever come up with is fatigue if the occured after a long Australia tour, but never even looked it up.

You're just being you.

 

[kyear2]

iirc 4 tests is enough of a sample size for a whole career so 3 tests should more than suffice for one country

Where has Barry's entire career been judged based on 4 tests?

Your narrow-mindedness, among other things is astounding.

 

[DrWolverine]

Don't have a clue why Sobers failed over there.

Gary Sobers failing there in 2 series and that too against a very weak team is surprising.

 

[Swamp Witch Hattie]

Sobers played 12 Tests against NZ: four in NZ in 1956, three in NZ in 1969 and five in the WI in 1972. He scored 404 runs at 23.76 in 18 innings with just 1 century and no fifties: a very poor return for a man who is arguably the second greatest batsman ever. In his final five Tests against NZ, he did average 36.14 so that series was not a complete catastrophe batting-wise, although still well below Sobers' usual standards:



On the 1956 tour to NZ, Sobers struggled with the unfamiliar conditions there (the greenish wickets which Hadlee did not bowl on for a change) and it has been suggested that his failure on this tour left "psychological scars" which blighted his subsequent performances against NZ:

from https://archive.acscricket.com/famous_cricketers/42/15/#zoom=z:



On the 1969 tour to (Australia then) NZ, he was "handicapped by a shoulder injury". He still averaged nearly 50 (49.70) in the Tests against Australia but maybe the batting on the Australian leg aggravated the shoulder injury before his Tests against NZ:

from https://archive.acscricket.com/famous_cricketers/42/50/#zoom=z:



In the 1972 Tests against NZ (in the WI), Sobers was 35 going on 36 and on the downslide.

from https://archive.acscricket.com/famous_cricketers/42/62/#zoom=z and https://archive.acscricket.com/famous_cricketers/42/63/#zoom=z:





Sobers' Test batting average passed 60 for the last time after the first Test against NZ in 1972 but declined thereafter:

Cumulative averages from Test 66 onwards:



From the first Test against NZ in 1972 until he retired about two years later (12 Tests), Sobers averaged 41.18, not diabolical but well below his best:



The most important thing to take out of all this information is that when the Sobers XI played the Hadlee XI in 2001, the Hadlee XI won:

SbrXI vs HadXI Cricket Scorecard at Nottingham, June 30, 2001

Get cricket scorecard of SbrXI vs HadXI, Weekend of Legends 2001 at Trent Bridge, Nottingham dated June 30, 2001.

www.espncricinfo.com

 

[kyear2]

I've always wondered if playing against NZ after long Australian tours would have taken a toll, but seems to be other contributors.

Still uncharacteristic.

 

[Coronis]

Sobers played 12 Tests against NZ: four in NZ in 1956, three in NZ in 1969 and five in the WI in 1972. He scored 404 runs at 23.76 in 18 innings with just 1 century and no fifties: a very poor return for a man who is arguably the second greatest batsman ever. In his final five Tests against NZ, he did average 36.14 so that series was not a complete catastrophe batting-wise, although still well below Sobers' usual standards:

View attachment 43322

On the 1956 tour to NZ, Sobers struggled with the unfamiliar conditions there (the greenish wickets which Hadlee did not bowl on for a change) and it has been suggested that his failure on this tour left "psychological scars" which blighted his subsequent performances against NZ:

from https://archive.acscricket.com/famous_cricketers/42/15/#zoom=z:

View attachment 43329

On the 1969 tour to (Australia then) NZ, he was "handicapped by a shoulder injury". He still averaged nearly 50 (49.70) in the Tests against Australia but maybe the batting on the Australian leg aggravated the shoulder injury before his Tests against NZ:

from https://archive.acscricket.com/famous_cricketers/42/50/#zoom=z:

View attachment 43324

In the 1972 Tests against NZ (in the WI), Sobers was 35 going on 36 and on the downslide.

from https://archive.acscricket.com/famous_cricketers/42/62/#zoom=z and https://archive.acscricket.com/famous_cricketers/42/63/#zoom=z:

View attachment 43325

View attachment 43326

Sobers' Test batting average passed 60 for the last time after the first Test against NZ in 1972 but declined thereafter:

Cumulative averages from Test 66 onwards:

View attachment 43327

From the first Test against NZ in 1972 until he retired about two years later (12 Tests), Sobers averaged 41.18, not diabolical but well below his best:

View attachment 43328

The most important thing to take out of all this information is that when the Sobers XI played the Hadlee XI in 2001, the Hadlee XI won:

SbrXI vs HadXI Cricket Scorecard at Nottingham, June 30, 2001

Get cricket scorecard of SbrXI vs HadXI, Weekend of Legends 2001 at Trent Bridge, Nottingham dated June 30, 2001.

www.espncricinfo.com

Enjoyed those writeups tbh

 

[subshakerz]

Sobers could average 0 against NZ and it wouldnt make him a lesser bat for me.

 

[DrWolverine]

Bumrah is so damn good

 

[kyear2]

Bumrah is so damn good

There have been ongoing conversations on whether Hadlee was disadvantaged by not being part of a great unit compared to let's say McGrath or Maco.

When you watch Bumrah, it's apparent how with the great ones it really doesn't matter. Just seems to give him more attempts for wickets.

 

[subshakerz]

There have been ongoing conversations on whether Hadlee was disadvantaged by not being part of a great unit compared to let's say McGrath or Maco.

When you watch Bumrah, it's apparent how with the great ones it really doesn't matter. Just seems to give him more attempts for wickets.

Recency bias.

 

[capt_Luffy]

There have been ongoing conversations on whether Hadlee was disadvantaged by not being part of a great unit compared to let's say McGrath or Maco.

When you watch Bumrah, it's apparent how with the great ones it really doesn't matter. Just seems to give him more attempts for wickets.

Eh, I don't buy that. I think even with just addition of Shami and Siraj turning good; Bumrah would had faired even better, not to mention the team as a whole...... Like, there's a good chance of Bumrah missing the 4th or 5th Test due to workload. Would had been much better with a bit better support.

 

[OverratedSanity]

There have been ongoing conversations on whether Hadlee was disadvantaged by not being part of a great unit compared to let's say McGrath or Maco.

When you watch Bumrah, it's apparent how with the great ones it really doesn't matter. Just seems to give him more attempts for wickets.

This means nothing, I could say Bumrah would average 15 if he had great bowlers around him.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Bumrah would probably average around 11 if he had guys like Ambrose/Garner/Holding/Walsh/Bishop/Roberts bowling with him

Marshall was very lucky to have such a great pace attack around him

 

[Prince EWS]

Bumrah has spent most of his career bowling in a great attack. Shami, Ashwin and Jadeja haven't exactly been liabilities he's had to carry on his sore shoulders.

Obviously a bit different in this series but still.

 

[subshakerz]

Bumrah has spent most of his career bowling in a great attack. Shami, Ashwin and Jadeja haven't exactly been liabilities he's had to carry on his sore shoulders.

Obviously a bit different in this series but still.

Yeah Bumrah had even Ishant Sharma in a brief worldclass phase early in his career.

 

[Coronis]

Bumrah has spent most of his career bowling in a great attack. Shami, Ashwin and Jadeja haven't exactly been liabilities he's had to carry on his sore shoulders.

Obviously a bit different in this series but still.

Yeah was gonna say

 

[DrWolverine]

Most Wickets in Test Cricket(Avg less than 20)
190 - Jasprit Bumrah (2018-2024)
189 - Sydney Barnes (1901-1914)

 

[Darkshadows]

Bumrah would probably average around 11 if he had guys like Ambrose/Garner/Holding/Walsh/Bishop/Roberts bowling with him

Marshall was very lucky to have such a great pace attack around him

Bumrah>Marshall is going to be majority consensus in few years.

 

[DrWolverine]

Bumrah>Marshall is going to be majority consensus in few years.

I will be surprised if it happens