Is Viv Richards an Overrated Test Batsman?

[robelinda]

Insults? really? You'll have to explain that one to me. You can also explain the magnifying glass picture, no idea what that was about.

 

[Himannv]

I have read so much crap here in CW over the years (besides many excellent and insightful posts)...

But I have never seen this many people supporting as big a crap as 'Viv wasn't that intimidating against spinners'. During his best years, he was intimidating against all types of bowlers. If you ask against which type he was more intimidating, that points out his strong point, not his weak one. At his best, the intimidating side of his batting didn't have any weak point.

Agree. I never said he was weak against spinners. Just feel he was far more dominant against pace while he was somewhat less brutal comparatively against spinners.

Disagree completely with the reverse swing opinion of some, Viv definitely faced a bit of it during his time.

On the whole this thread is rubbish imo. I may believe Lara is better, but there is no way in hell Richards is overrated. Ridiculous tripe.

 

[shivfan]

I am not saying Viv was **** against spin. He was not his commanding self against spinners and that intimidation factor was not to be seen against them. And we know there's a gulf of class between Chandra / Qadir and Murali / Warne. I can ad reverse swing too to the recipe. Another novel art, that Viv was not tested agsinst.

So you are telling me that Viv played fast bowlers and spinners equally well? Yes or No?

Viv destroyed pace bowlers, like Greg Thomas and Devon Malcolm, after they tried to give him some lip. That was the joy of the confrontation....

But in all the time I watched him, he was never troubled by spin, because he used his feet very well to spinners. In all the time I watched him play, I never heard a commie saying, 'The captain should bring on spin, because that's Viv's weakness.' So, yes, Viv played spin and pace equally well.

It's a bit of a myth that reverse swing was invented by the Pakistani duo of Akram and Younis. If you read Malcolm Marshall's autobiography, you will see he used it very well. If you read Shaun Pollock's autobiography, you will see him saying that Marshall taught him how to do it when they were playing county cricket in England.

As for Qadir, there are quite a few cricket experts who will say that the Pakistani leggie was the equal of Warne. He was arguably regarded as the best of his time, and the truth is that Viv played against the best spinners of the time, and came out on top. You can't ask more than that!

 

[Teja.]

Viv was not Sidhu sort of awesome against spin but he was a high quality batsman of spin bowling without being prodigiously destructive against the type of bowling IMHO. But that's very little to hold against him.

 

[Migara]

First of all the above statement is different from saying "his weakness was against spin".Was he better against fast bowling than against spin bowling, maybe even though I don't see how anyone who has not seen him bat can conclude that because statistically it shows the opposite. Against Bedi, Chandra, Prasanna, Venkat and Qadir (when any one of them played ) he averages close to 60.

Secondly on what basis are you suggesting that "incidentally that was not an era of spin bowling" ?

Are you suggesting that the Indian Spin bowlers of Bedi, Chandra, Prasanna and Venkat were not good ?

Now are you suggesting me that the above lot was significantly better than Murali, Warne, Kumble, Saqlain, Harbhajan and Mushtaq? Viv played spin well that was presented to him. But he has never ever faced spin of quality that Lara, Tendulkar or Hutton faced, and that's a fact. There was a guy named Mike Gatting who tore apart spinners of 80s, to be found groping against Kumble, Murali, Warne and Warnaweera, the first three in the infancy of their careers. Legendary spinners take apart the techniques of batsmen who were regarded as the best against lesser spinners. Mike Gatting is a living proof for that. My point is he never played great spinners in his career. And his "weaker" (or less stronger) suit was playing them.

 

[weldone]

My 2 cents for the thread topic:

One is not overrating Viv if he's saying that Viv is the best ODI batsman ever, by far.

One is not overrating Viv if he's saying that during his best years Viv was as intimidating a batsman as anyone bar Bradman against all types of bowlers on all types of pitches.

One is not overrating Viv if he's saying that Viv was a better batsman than his career average suggests.

One is not overrating Viv if he takes into account his WSC stats as a supporting evidence of his greatness.

One is overrating Viv slightly if he says that Viv had the 2nd best ever test batting career after Bradman, or if he says that Viv was unarguably the best batsman WI has ever produced.

 

[Teja.]

My 2 cents for the thread topic:

One is not overrating Viv if he's saying that Viv is the best ODI batsman ever, by far.

One is not overrating Viv if he's saying that during his best years Viv was as intimidating a batsman as anyone bar Bradman against all types of bowlers on all types of pitches.

One is not overrating Viv if he's saying that Viv was a better batsman than his career average suggests.

One is not overrating Viv if he takes into account his WSC stats as a supporting evidence of his greatness.

One is overrating Viv slightly if he says that Viv had the 2nd best ever test batting career after Bradman, or if he says that Viv was unarguably the best batsman WI has ever produced.

Yeah, AWTA.

 

[shivfan]

Cant believe the fact that Viv didnt play against his own attack is being used against him.

I agree....

However, this thread has just reminded me of a match back in the days when Caribbean domestic cricket was amongst the best in the world. Ah, the good old days....

I can't remember the year (1985?), but it was Jamaica vs Leewards, at a lightning quick Sabina Park, with an ageing Michael Holding, and two young and hostile pacers - Courtney Walsh and Patrick Patterson - in the jamaica team. They were up against a strong Leewards batting lineup in Viv Richards, Richie Richardson, et al. And the Jamaican pacers won, skittling the Leewards out for less than 100!

But Viv and co got revenge the next year, when Jamaica travelled to the leewards, and on a more batsman-friendly pitch, the Jamaican pacers got hammered out of the park....

 

[Migara]

Viv destroyed pace bowlers, like Greg Thomas and Devon Malcolm, after they tried to give him some lip. That was the joy of the confrontation....

But in all the time I watched him, he was never troubled by spin, because he used his feet very well to spinners. In all the time I watched him play, I never heard a commie saying, 'The captain should bring on spin, because that's Viv's weakness.' So, yes, Viv played spin and pace equally well.

It's a bit of a myth that reverse swing was invented by the Pakistani duo of Akram and Younis. If you read Malcolm Marshall's autobiography, you will see he used it very well. If you read Shaun Pollock's autobiography, you will see him saying that Marshall taught him how to do it when they were playing county cricket in England.

As for Qadir, there are quite a few cricket experts who will say that the Pakistani leggie was the equal of Warne. He was arguably regarded as the best of his time, and the truth is that Viv played against the best spinners of the time, and came out on top. You can't ask more than that!

Viv has admitted that he was troubled by Chadrashekar, and Chadra some times did bowl bouncers at him. Viv playing pace and spin equally well is a myth. He was not the best player of spin even in his team, Lloyd and Gomez were the ones known for it.

Viv is a great batsman, but not lesser or greater than what his average tells us. (Hence people saying that he was superman are overrating him and who says he was utter crap are underrating him). Give me Tendulkar, I'd take him over Viv everyday of the week for test cricket.

 

[shivfan]

Viv has admitted that he was troubled by Chadrashekar, and Chadra some times did bowl bouncers at him. Viv playing pace and spin equally well is a myth. He was not the best player of spin even in his team, Lloyd and Gomez were the ones known for it.

Viv is a great batsman, but not lesser or greater than what his average tells us. (Hence people saying that he was superman are overrating him and who says he was utter crap are underrating him). Give me Tendulkar, I'd take him over Viv everyday of the week for test cricket.

Who's talking about comparing Richards to Tendulkar?

Is that where this is coming from?

If you'd read Viv's autobiography properly, you would see him saying he was troubled by a lot of bowlers, including pacers. That was Viv the person. He was a demon on the field, but off it, he was one of the nicest persons around. In his autobiography, he comes across as very modest, underplaying his achievements, and overplaying those of his opponents.

That era of WI batsmen could all play spin well - Greenidge, Haynes, Richards, Lloyd, Gomes. They could all play well against pace, too. Only on dusty, underprepared spinning tracks, like the occasional Sydney one, and the one which was concocted to give Hirwani an excellent debut he couldn't repeat anywhere else, were they occasionally found wanting against a decent leggie. But aside from those freak pitches, on 90-odd percent of the other pitches around the world, spinners hardly troubled the West Indians....

 

[aussie]

I agree....

However, this thread has just reminded me of a match back in the days when Caribbean domestic cricket was amongst the best in the world. Ah, the good old days....

I can't remember the year (1985?), but it was Jamaica vs Leewards, at a lightning quick Sabina Park, with an ageing Michael Holding, and two young and hostile pacers - Courtney Walsh and Patrick Patterson - in the jamaica team. They were up against a strong Leewards batting lineup in Viv Richards, Richie Richardson, et al. And the Jamaican pacers won, skittling the Leewards out for less than 100!

But Viv and co got revenge the next year, when Jamaica travelled to the leewards, and on a more batsman-friendly pitch, the Jamaican pacers got hammered out of the park....

Nice story. You think you can find the scorecard for these on cricinfo?

 

[aussie]

Viv has admitted that he was troubled by Chadrashekar, and Chadra some times did bowl bouncers at him. Viv playing pace and spin equally well is a myth. He was not the best player of spin even in his team, Lloyd and Gomez were the ones known for it.

Viv is a great batsman, but not lesser or greater than what his average tells us. (Hence people saying that he was superman are overrating him and who says he was utter crap are underrating him). Give me Tendulkar, I'd take him over Viv everyday of the week for test cricket.

DEAR GOD. You have officially lost the plot.

Viv was only troubled by Chandra in ONE SERIES - in IND 1974. When he faced them again in the WI 75/76 along with other top spinner, he dominated them - the best spin combinations in test history.

Viv clearly handled pace & spin equally well, so get off it.

If you would take Tendy over Viv fine. But i'd guranteed that the majority of those who had the luxury of actually seeing both Viv in his prime & Tendy in prime, would unanimously taken King Viv as the better test player.

 

[aussie]

Add Underwood to that list of decent spinners Viv took apart (averaged 70+ in tests featuring Underwood).

Yea.

Now that i think about it even more. I would have backed Viv to dominate Warne & Murali more often than not if he played in the last 15 years.

When you think of how Warne @ his peak bowled vs WI in 95/96 & 96/97 (when the windies didn't hit rock bottom yet). Hollywood was just good againts the likes of Lara, Chanders, Hooper over those two series - he didn't even take a 5 for. So imagine what a superior batsman like Viv would have done to him.

Then of course we all know how well Lara played Murali. Watching KP take on Murali when SRI toured ENG in 06, with all those invitive shots is certainly what Viv would have done if he faced Murali.

 

[Teja.]

If you would take Tendy over Viv fine. But i'd guranteed that the majority of those who had the luxury of actually seeing both Viv in his prime & Tendy in prime, would unanimously taken King Viv as the better test player.

Disagree.

 

[andyc]

DEAR GOD. You have officially lost the plot.

Someone's allowed to have a different viewpoint, aussie. No need for the insults.

 

[Sanz]

Now are you suggesting me that the above lot was significantly better than Murali, Warne, Kumble, Saqlain, Harbhajan and Mushtaq?

As a group they were better than the above. And Individually they may not be better, but still very very good.

Viv played spin well that was presented to him. But he has never ever faced spin of quality that Lara, Tendulkar or Hutton faced, and that's a fact.

Don't change your statement, you said "Viv's weakness was against Spinners" which is very different from the above statement. And no what you said above is not a fact but your opinion, which I disagree with but have no problem with.

There was a guy named Mike Gatting who tore apart spinners of 80s, to be found groping against Kumble, Murali, Warne and Warnaweera, the first three in the infancy of their careers. Legendary spinners take apart the techniques of batsmen who were regarded as the best against lesser spinners. Mike Gatting is a living proof for that. My point is he never played great spinners in his career. And his "weaker" (or less stronger) suit was playing them.

Okay so you are going to use Mike Gatting's performance to prove that Richards had a weakness against spinner ?

 

[Slifer]

Its interesting that certain people keep highlighting Viv's supposed weakness against quality pace but then it just occurred to me that the two modern greats who I have the utmost respect for were no great shakes vs the great pace bowlers of their time. I guess we need to start a thread now to dissect Tendy's and Lara's weakness vs quality pacemen just to be fair

 

[Slifer]

Who's talking about comparing Richards to Tendulkar?

Is that where this is coming from?

If you'd read Viv's autobiography properly, you would see him saying he was troubled by a lot of bowlers, including pacers. That was Viv the person. He was a demon on the field, but off it, he was one of the nicest persons around. In his autobiography, he comes across as very modest, underplaying his achievements, and overplaying those of his opponents.

That era of WI batsmen could all play spin well - Greenidge, Haynes, Richards, Lloyd, Gomes. They could all play well against pace, too. Only on dusty, underprepared spinning tracks, like the occasional Sydney one, and the one which was concocted to give Hirwani an excellent debut he couldn't repeat anywhere else, were they occasionally found wanting against a decent leggie. But aside from those freak pitches, on 90-odd percent of the other pitches around the world, spinners hardly troubled the West Indians....

I honestly think that was the point of the thread from the get go hence my above post

 

[Ikki]

Its interesting that certain people keep highlighting Viv's supposed weakness against quality pace but then it just occurred to me that the two modern greats who I have the utmost respect for were no great shakes vs the great pace bowlers of their time. I guess we need to start a thread now to dissect Tendy's and Lara's weakness vs quality pacemen just to be fair

That's a good point. Lara certainly wasn't successful across the board and even Tendy was hit and miss - poor against Pakistan and S.Africa; great against WIndies, and just good against Australia with her best attack.

People have pointed to how the 90s were a bit tougher than the 80s, but haven't mentioned the mix successes of these batsmen.

 

[Slifer]

I'm anxiously awaiting the backlash from my post, looking forward to it tbh. But my point is well supported.