Is Flintoff Overrated?

[luckyeddie]

Equally delightable to be conversing again with you LE old pal, old mucker, old buddy, old... and the ever devilish duck, of course.
Not disputing the Flintoff matter, but to talk down White is forgetful and ungreatful AFAIAC.

As you are no doubt aware, I was a fan of Craig White myself in his later years

<quack> No you weren't

I felt that he was a gutsy player whose head never dropped.

<quack> Nearly as good as Corky?

I wouldn't go that far, but better than Flintoff at the time - and better than Rikki will ever be

<quack> You're dead

 

[Richard]

So the clichés with Rikki and His Regal Left-Handedness are The Duck's?
I always thought they were yours, LE...

 

[andmark]

Overated Flintoff?

Is Andrew Flintoff overated?.I think he is,because when was the last time he got 3 wickets in a odi?.Also when was the last time he got a decant score for batting?
What are your thoughts about the one series wonder.

 

[adharcric]

Totally agree. He's just an English version of Agarkar.

 

[LA ICE-E]

i dont think so...he was the bowler who gave england those break through is their miserable ashes campaign...he's way better than agarkar

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

Depends what form of the game you're talking about, I guess. Flintoff is only an average test batsman really, but in ODIs he's been genuinely good in the past. Hasn't done much in a while though, since moving down the order in particular.

He's obviously a fine bowler.

 

[Matt79]

Over-rated? In terms of whether he's one of the more valuable players to any team in world cricket today? No.

In terms of whether he's going to end up being regarded as one of the all-time great all-rounders? Yes, by the mainstream media etc.

 

[thierry henry]

Horribly overrated.

Excellent ODI player, but needs to do a lot more in tests (which is where most of the praise of him comes from imo). In particular, people always rave about his bowling, which imo is a lot more about how dangerous he looks as a bowler, than how dangerous he actually is.

 

[Fiery]

It's a damn good thread start from a 10 year old (although I'm sceptical about that for some reason). He has done very little since the Ashes '05...alcohol probably a factor (mmm...alcohol). Needs to lift his game.
He's classic example of someone who was born with natural talent, has been told all his life how good he is, so hasn't bothered to try too hard.

PS: Homerism thrown in there you may have noticed.
"Alcohol...the cause of...and solution to...all of life's problems"

 

[C_C]

Overrated as compared to what ?

Are you putting Flintoff in the top echelon with Imran, Miller, Sobers ? If so, i'd say yes, he's definitely overrated.

Are you putting Flintoff in the bracket just below with Kapil, Mankad, Botham, Kallis, Procter, etc ? Then yes, i'd say he is probably overrated.

But if you are putting him in the next tier with Cairns, Pollock, Hadlee, Benaud, etc, you are probably doing justice to Flintoff.

(The abovementioned is for Tests)

In ODIs, i'd say Flintoff is in the third tier again, with Cairns, Pollock, etc. in the same boat.

 

[Hoppy1987]

When Freddie is on form he is one of the most destructive batsmen in the world, and has the ability to get wickets at crucial times, he would be a valuable addition to any squad, he also has a safe pair of hands and a good arm to boot. Event he best players suffer blips in their forms so I don't think we can really start criticising Freddie until he really has not produced for a few years. Not just months!

 

[Hoppy1987]

Freddie has proven he can take wickes in all forms of the game, and score runs in both forms, i really don't see the problem, especially if England want to pin their hopes on him every game. He must be doing something right??

 

[pup11]

First thing first i think Flintoff is one of most gifted talents going around atm, but he hasn't done justice to his potential at all.
He took a long time to arrive on the international scene, his most memorable performance till date was during the Ashes 05, but after that due to the weight of expectations and some injuries his graph has gone down.


He has looked an average player after that, is he overrated no, but underperforming "yes".

 

[Fiery]

Overrated as compared to what ?

Are you putting Flintoff in the top echelon with Imran, Miller, Sobers ? If so, i'd say yes, he's definitely overrated.

Are you putting Flintoff in the bracket just below with Kapil, Mankad, Botham, Kallis, Procter, etc ? Then yes, i'd say he is probably overrated.

But if you are putting him in the next tier with Cairns, Pollock, Hadlee, Benaud, etc, you are probably doing justice to Flintoff.

(The abovementioned is for Tests)

In ODIs, i'd say Flintoff is in the third tier again, with Cairns, Pollock, etc. in the same boat.

Please don't get into a "Flintoff v whoever" conversation C_C.

Take note Kazaholic

 

[GIMH]

It's a damn good thread start from a 10 year old (although I'm sceptical about that for some reason). He has done very little since the Ashes '05...alcohol probably a factor (mmm...alcohol). Needs to lift his game.
He's classic example of someone who was born with natural talent, has been told all his life how good he is, so hasn't bothered to try too hard.

PS: Homerism thrown in there you may have noticed.
"Alcohol...the cause of...and solution to...all of life's problems"

India away?

 

[Fiery]

Overrated as compared to what ?

Are you putting Flintoff in the top echelon with Imran, Miller, Sobers ? If so, i'd say yes, he's definitely overrated.

Are you putting Flintoff in the bracket just below with Kapil, Mankad, Botham, Kallis, Procter, etc ? Then yes, i'd say he is probably overrated.

But if you are putting him in the next tier with Cairns, Pollock, Hadlee, Benaud, etc, you are probably doing justice to Flintoff.

(The abovementioned is for Tests)

In ODIs, i'd say Flintoff is in the third tier again, with Cairns, Pollock, etc. in the same boat.

The fact you've put Hadlee in a tier below "Kapil, Mankad, Botham, Kallis, Procter" and not in the "Imran, Miller, Sobers ?" group is insulting to the man. Imran doesn't deserve to be in the same group as Sobers and neither does Miller anyway. Hadlee's 2 tiers too low there

 

[Fiery]

India away?

fair call...didn't get coverage of that series so might have given him an injustice there

 

[pasag]

It's a damn good thread start from a 10 year old (although I'm sceptical about that for some reason). He has done very little since the Ashes '05...alcohol probably a factor. Needs to lift his game.
He's classic example of someone who was born with natural talent, has been told all his life how good he is, so hasn't bothered to try too hard

Disagree with everything in this post. First alcohol is not a factor, there is no proven correlation with him liking to have a drink and his recent performance on the cricket field. It's just tabloid like speculation. You don't know that he started drinking as his form went down nor he didn't drink anything when he was ontop of the world. That's just speculation that shouldn't be entertained. So alcohol is probably not a factor.

Furthermore, I don't agree either with the him not trying too had. Anyone who watched the Ashes in 05 and 06/07, the Test series against India, Pakistan and Sri Lanka can see the guy gives everything for his country on the field. If anything he's the exact opposite of what you say. Furthermore during the recent Ashes, the way he took the heat of the team during an excruciatingly tough period, the way he held his head up, defended his teammates, took a heap of **** on a day to day basis tells me about how much he's given his country.

One of my favourite players precisley for how much he puts in on the feild and how passionate he is for his team and for cricket. He's having abit of a rough patch at the moment, it's the end of a long season and alot has happened. That's all there is to it, imo.

 

[C_C]

group is insulting to NZ's greatest all-rounder.

Not really.

If a alltime great batsman is a handy bowler (like say Steve Waugh) or a handy batsman (like say Hadlee,Wasim, Benaud,etc) i don't really consider them to be as good as true allrounders (like Botham/Kapil/Miller) who are/were excellent at both or players like Imran who went from a great bowler and handy bat to excellent bowler and quite decent bat.
Plus there are many tangiables to the equation. In any case, i don't wish to debate this further.


PS: Don't worry, i'd pick Hadlee 100 times out of 100 ahead of McGrath for my alltime team.

 

[pasag]

Overrated as compared to what ?

Are you putting Flintoff in the top echelon with Imran, Miller, Sobers ? If so, i'd say yes, he's definitely overrated.

Are you putting Flintoff in the bracket just below with Kapil, Mankad, Botham, Kallis, Procter, etc ? Then yes, i'd say he is probably overrated.

But if you are putting him in the next tier with Cairns, Pollock, Hadlee, Benaud, etc, you are probably doing justice to Flintoff.

(The abovementioned is for Tests)

In ODIs, i'd say Flintoff is in the third tier again, with Cairns, Pollock, etc. in the same boat.

C_C, when you discuss players, from what I've seen you tend to compare them to other players over history. Same thing with Hayden. I'm not saying this is a good thing or bad thing and I'm not trying to criticise you, but like this topic and the one on Hayden, I think the emphasis is on where the player stands today, amongst his peers, in the world right at this moment or over a recent time period. Not trying to take anything away from your post though.