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Is Daniel Vettori underachieving?
- Thread starter Fiery
- Start date
Richard
Cricket Web Staff Member
Haha, you're opening the door for another of Martin (thierry henry)'s tirades here...
FWIW, I'm of the opinion that Vettori's has been a complex career. He's always had a long-term back problem and for quite some time between 2002 and English season 2004, that meant he was awful (just check it out - that's 19 Tests, 1 of which was excellent and the rest of which were almost unilaterally awful).
Outside this period, IMO he's rarely failed to take advantage of a turning pitch. Without wanting to get into that match at The WACA again (for those who don't know that's probably the biggest bone of contention between myself and tec that there is - whether that pitch turned or not) a few examples were some games like these, plus of course the entire Sri Lanka tour of 1998. A common bone is the India tour of 1999\2000 - good spinners are supposed to succeed in India and all that. Well... not if the pitches offer as little to spin as they did that series, no. The one pitch that did a bit, at Kanpur, he did pretty reasonably, picking-up 6-149.
Once we get back out the other side of that long period where he was injured, it's a similar story - and note the number of games there which he's barely bowled in.
Vettori, for me, is an excellent fingerspinner who's nonetheless curtailed by the modern (post-covered-pitches) limitations on fingerspinners - ie the brutal reality that there don't tend to be a hell of a lot of pitches that are helpful.
And as has been the case since time immemorial, fingerspinners need a helpful surface to get the ball off the straight. And a spinner who doesn't turn the ball... well, there's a reason they're called "spinners".
FWIW, I'm of the opinion that Vettori's has been a complex career. He's always had a long-term back problem and for quite some time between 2002 and English season 2004, that meant he was awful (just check it out - that's 19 Tests, 1 of which was excellent and the rest of which were almost unilaterally awful).
Outside this period, IMO he's rarely failed to take advantage of a turning pitch. Without wanting to get into that match at The WACA again (for those who don't know that's probably the biggest bone of contention between myself and tec that there is - whether that pitch turned or not) a few examples were some games like these, plus of course the entire Sri Lanka tour of 1998. A common bone is the India tour of 1999\2000 - good spinners are supposed to succeed in India and all that. Well... not if the pitches offer as little to spin as they did that series, no. The one pitch that did a bit, at Kanpur, he did pretty reasonably, picking-up 6-149.
Once we get back out the other side of that long period where he was injured, it's a similar story - and note the number of games there which he's barely bowled in.
Vettori, for me, is an excellent fingerspinner who's nonetheless curtailed by the modern (post-covered-pitches) limitations on fingerspinners - ie the brutal reality that there don't tend to be a hell of a lot of pitches that are helpful.
And as has been the case since time immemorial, fingerspinners need a helpful surface to get the ball off the straight. And a spinner who doesn't turn the ball... well, there's a reason they're called "spinners".
GGG
State Captain
How many of the above are off spin bowlers? I don't think off spin/finger spin bowlers unless they really rip the ball aka Murali are not going to have the average as a top class seamer. He also bowls alot in unfavourable conditions as our other bowler fail to make an impression.
Richard
Cricket Web Staff Member
As I say - fingerspinners always need favourable surfaces, and New Zealand is one of many countries where you don't play many Tests on such surfaces.
If you look at non-subcontinental (ie not Saqlain, Harbhajan et al) fingerspinners (ie not Warne, Murali, Qadir et al) of the modern (post-1970) era who've taken said number of wickets I'd imagine Vettori would be right up there. And remember Derek Underwood's record transforms considerably as you go from uncovered to covered pitches.
If you look at non-subcontinental (ie not Saqlain, Harbhajan et al) fingerspinners (ie not Warne, Murali, Qadir et al) of the modern (post-1970) era who've taken said number of wickets I'd imagine Vettori would be right up there. And remember Derek Underwood's record transforms considerably as you go from uncovered to covered pitches.
Fiery
Banned
Good post Richard
blockbuster
Cricket Spectator
Very hard craft.
Conditions, in the main, are not conducive either.
Conditions, in the main, are not conducive either.
Fiery
Banned
Yes, but Bishan Bedi and Derek Underwood both bowled left-arm orthodox as well and have far better averages. (I know Underwood was more of a darter or fast-spinner (if I can get away with that word))
Richard
Cricket Web Staff Member
Underwood's record in the covered-pitches era, while still slightly better than Vettori's, is nowhere near as good as his record in the uncovered era.
Bedi, meanwhile, was the stereotypical Indian fingerspinner - look at the difference between his home and away records.
Bedi, meanwhile, was the stereotypical Indian fingerspinner - look at the difference between his home and away records.
SJS
Hall of Fame Member
Of the 51 bowlers in THAT LIST there are only 13 spinners - plus Sobers who bowled in both categories.
The names make a very impressive reading. Here thay are in the order of bowling averages.
Muralitharan, M*
Grimmett, C V
Warne, S K
Underwood, D L
Benaud, R
Kumble, A *
Bedi, B S
Gibbs, L R
Chandrasekhar, B S
Saqlain Mushtaq*
Harbhajan Singh*
Abdul Qadir
Vettori, D L*
To be last in that list is no disgrace for Vettori. To be included in it is an honour for him.
shortpitched713
International Captain
I think Vettori performs an important role for New Zealand that is often underestimated. Sure his average is not the best, but what can you expect from a spinner who plays about half his matches in New Zealand? In addition he usually does end up picking up wickets in his longer spells, and he bowls pretty economically in Tests and ODIs. I don't know what more can really be realistically expected of him, especially with pitches these days not being very conducive at all to spin for the most part.
That being said I would like to see Jeetan Patel get a chance in the subcontinet. Looks like a good prospect, but its really hard to say whether or not he would be a better spinner than Vettori in Test matches unless he is given a chance in some.
That being said I would like to see Jeetan Patel get a chance in the subcontinet. Looks like a good prospect, but its really hard to say whether or not he would be a better spinner than Vettori in Test matches unless he is given a chance in some.
Fiery
Banned
Good posts on this thread. Jeetan Patel is still young for a spinner and his time will come. I'm happy with the job Vettori is doing in both forms of the game but it goes without saying, more wickets would be nice. Hope he can do that and bring his average down a bit so that in 50 years time he is not seen as an average NZ spinner from the turn of the century by those who look at stats purely to gauge a players worth.
shortpitched713
International Captain
Even so he'd still be streets ahead of other New Zealand spinners throughout history, and that in itself is a bit of an accomplishment.
Fiery
Banned
Yeah, I should have left out the "NZ" in my post
thierry henry
International Coach
I know I said I wouldn't, but here I am...
Vettori sucks!!
Vettori sucks!!
Flem274*
123/5
God, I'd love to hear what you think of Mason, Gillespie and co.
Random memory here: In the WC they listed Vettori's bowling as "slow left arm" not "left arm fingerspin." Considering they listed Patel as a proper spinner, I found that interesting.Thoughts?
The Big Cheese
School Boy/Girl Cricketer
Does it really matter? I know I wouldnt care. But thats just me i guess.God, I'd love to hear what you think of Mason, Gillespie and co.
Random memory here: In the WC they listed Vettori's bowling as "slow left arm" not "left arm fingerspin." Considering they listed Patel as a proper spinner, I found that interesting.Thoughts?
thierry henry
International Coach
lol I love that. It's true- he doesn't turn it.
The Big Cheese
School Boy/Girl Cricketer
Then doesnt that make his record more impressive? A slow left arm seamer picking up 5 fers and 6 fers all over the place!
Prince EWS
Global Moderator
They do that for every left arm orthodox fingerspinner and right arm orthofox spinner though. People often bring up that point as if it means something, but it clearly doesn't as it applies to everyone. According to TV overlays..God, I'd love to hear what you think of Mason, Gillespie and co.
Random memory here: In the WC they listed Vettori's bowling as "slow left arm" not "left arm fingerspin." Considering they listed Patel as a proper spinner, I found that interesting.Thoughts?
Slow left arm
Off spin
It's just how it is. Don't particularly know why, but they've decided to do it like that. It has nothing to do with how much they turn the ball - for Panesar was listed as SLA and Dilshan was listed as OS.