Is Ashwin an ATG spinner / player?

[OverratedSanity]

So the main argument in this thread is the dropping overseas. Well, during his career (I’m unsure how long it was until he was established), India has played 56 matches in SENA countries. Ashwin on the other hand has played 20. With a current test career of 81 matches, take from that what you will.
Yes he failed in his first test like all the other Aussies so they wanted to try someone new, one test in isn’t the same as being consistently dropped over your career.

It's 21/39, which is not that bad, but yeah still indicates he's been dropped/injured plenty. Ultimately I dont think the fact that he gets dropped is that strong of an argument (especially because a handful of these like Adelaide 2012 and the recent england tour are example of Kohli just being a dumbass) , atleast not as much as the fact that he's simply not quite consistently great enough for that ATG status.

If he gets in shape and has 4-5 great away tours in the next few years then maybe.

 

[h_hurricane]

So the main argument in this thread is the dropping overseas. Well, during his career (I’m unsure how long it was until he was established), India has played 56 matches in SENA countries. Ashwin on the other hand has played 20. With a current test career of 81 matches, take from that what you will.



Yes he failed in his first test like all the other Aussies so they wanted to try someone new, one test in isn’t the same as being consistently dropped over your career.

My point was that even the greatest got dropped. So it should not be much of an indictment on Ashwin(a much lesser cricketer) to get dropped. Also, as deathscar said, he got dropped for Jadeja most of the time(not a like for like replacement but a much better bat and could do a job with the ball).

Fwiw, Ashwin got dropped once in favour of Karan Sharma, but then again, just it was just bad team selection.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Ashwin even when he's not dropped gets injured and doesn't finish series because his body isnt built for true marathon spinner spells. I rate him lower more for this than for our captain being a fool. Ashwin's a more skillful bowler than Kumble and I rate his series equal to kumble's in 04 but he couldnt have bowled those long spells being the lone weapon. Kumble bowled a gazillion overs in that Australia series and still had the stamina to take a 12fer at sydney. Absolute iron man performance. Ashwin would've pulled up and not even played that game.

 

[h_hurricane]

it's also not a fair comparison imo. ashwin isn't picked for the job waqar is, and pacers are flat out just better.

The only issue with this narrative is that it is not consistent. You might be aware that Garner averages 19 overseas or Ambrose 20, whereas Warne averages 25. Nearly no one compares Warne vs Garner and says Warne is worse, because their roles are different. Ashwin is only as far behind as Warne overseas as Waqar is behind Ambrose/Garner imo.

 

[Slifer]

The only issue with this narrative is that it is not consistent. You might be aware that Garner averages 19 overseas or Ambrose 20, whereas Warne averages 25. Nearly no one compares Warne vs Garner and says Warne is worse, because their roles are different. Ashwin is only as far behind as Warne overseas as Waqar is behind Ambrose/Garner imo.

Garner is not greater than Warne. But as bowlers, their jobs when it boils down to it is to take wickets cheaply and in good time if at all possible. By that measure, top tier fast bowlers are better than their spin counterparts. Just my opinion of course.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Garner is not greater than Warne. But as bowlers, their jobs when it boils down to it is to take wickets cheaply and in good time if at all possible. By that measure, top tier fast bowlers are better than their spin counterparts. Just my opinion of course.

That's evened out by top tier spinners taking a significantly higher volume of wickets imo. Very valuable to have top class spinners in the team who can shoulder huge workload and reliably take 5-6 wickets a game.

 

[Slifer]

That's evened out by top tier spinners taking a significantly higher volume of wickets imo. Very valuable to have top class spinners in the team who can shoulder huge workload and reliably take 5-6 wickets a game.

Except for Murali, no modern spinner is taking 5 or 6 wickets per game. And Murali probably only managed that because he was SL's only world class bowler.

Using Warne again as an example, he took around 4.9 wpm, McGrath 4.5, MM 4.6 Garner 4.4. Imo, that's not that big a difference. Now compare that with there averages and SR. Compare that with their home and away records etc. Yeah spinners are valuable in being able to bowl longer spells and take wickets (usually slower and at higher expense). But head to head, top fast bowlers are just more effective/better generally.

 

[CricAddict]

Except for Murali, no modern spinner is taking 5 or 6 wickets per game. And Murali probably only managed that because he was SL's only world class bowler.

Using Warne again as an example, he took around 4.9 wpm, McGrath 4.5, MM 4.6 Garner 4.4. Imo, that's not that big a difference. Now compare that with there averages and SR. Compare that with their home and away records etc. Yeah spinners are valuable in being able to bowl longer spells and take wickets (usually slower and at higher expense). But head to head, top fast bowlers are just more effective/better generally.

Top fast bowlers may generally be better to watch but not better generally than top spinners.

 

[Nikhil99.94]

If Ashwin is atg,Anderson is too and Anderson isn’t atg.Ashwin and Anderson both have some good contributions in series win away from home in big series and have been good overseas in 4-5 years ,Anderson may be in 7-8 years but none of them is around ATG mark.
If only spinners are considered ashwin will be in top 10 cause there is less competition for spinner than fast bowlers.For spinners-
1.O’Reilly
2.Warne
3.Murali
4.grimmett
5.laker
6.verity
Then may be ashwin will have some debate on him being in 7 and most likely will be in top 10.
And Ashwin isn’t competing with O’Reilly as mentioned in start of the forum,O’Reilly>>Ashwin,imo the greatest ever .As stated by bradman,the greatest bowler of any type who ever lived.

 

[Slifer]

Top fast bowlers may generally be better to watch but not better generally than top spinners.

Better averages, strike rates and better outside their home countries. So yeah, top fast bowlers are generally better (not necessarily greater) than top spinners (especially in modern times).

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

Ambrose also isn't in same class as McGrath, Akram , Marshall, Hadlee or Steyn . So he also isn't 1st tier ATG.

Fixed

 

[Shri]

Yes, but that's why he's not a guaranteed ATG and only an arguable one - like a very lower rung one...Courtney Walsh

He's the Shoaib Akhtar of spinners but without the drugs and the herpes

 

[h_hurricane]

It ashwin is atg,Anderson is too and Anderson isn’t atg.Ashwin and Anderson both have some good contributions in series win away from home in big series and have been good overseas in 4-5 years ,Anderson may be in 7-8 years but none of them is around ATG mark.
If only spinners are considered ashwin will be in top 10 cause there is less competition for spinner than fast bowlers.For spinners-
1.O’Reilly
2.Warne
3.Murali
4.grimmett
5.laker
6.verity
Then may be ashwin will have some debate on him being in 7 and most likely will be in top 10.
And Ashwin isn’t competing with O’Reilly as mentioned in start of the forum,O’Reilly>>Ashwin,imo the greatest ever .As stated by bradman,the greatest bowler of any type who ever lived.

Bradman hasn't seen Jadeja bowl. Not his fault obviously.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Except for Murali, no modern spinner is taking 5 or 6 wickets per game. And Murali probably only managed that because he was SL's only world class bowler.

Using Warne again as an example, he took around 4.9 wpm, McGrath 4.5, MM 4.6 Garner 4.4. Imo, that's not that big a difference. Now compare that with there averages and SR. Compare that with their home and away records etc. Yeah spinners are valuable in being able to bowl longer spells and take wickets (usually slower and at higher expense). But head to head, top fast bowlers are just more effective/better generally.

Half a wicket per game is a pretty significant difference statistically isn't it? Ashwin's well over 5wpm too, but then again some of it is down to him being (stupidly) dropped overseas.

 

[SillyCowCorner1]

A bit off-topic, at one point in 2010, I thought that Jakati was a better bowler than him. lol

 

[h_hurricane]

Ashwin's away average is 31. Waqar's away average is 25. Waqar is an ATG pacer without any qualifications IMO.

Waqar averages 26.06 home+neutral. Ashwin likewise averages 30.55. The difference is around 4.5 runs. It is debatable though under which category one should add neutral venues.
Regardless, that is the ballpark difference in averages between top quicks and top spinners away from home. Eg; Ambrose vs Warne or Mcgrath vs Murali.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

He's the Shoaib Akhtar of spinners but without the drugs and the herpes

Shoaib Akthar is Kumble of pacers.

 

[subshakerz]

By same logic Border , Ponting or Dravid aren't in same class as Sobers, Sachin, Smith or Lara. So they aren't also ATG

I think its obvious there a bigger gulf between Kumble and Warne and Ashwin and Muralinthan between Ponting and Sachin.

 

[subshakerz]

Literally the stats geeks here are the only ones who follow cricket who wouldn’t think of Akram as an inner circle atg and I realize there are differences in clarification. This is fine of the fly so don’t hold me to it but the way I see it is the atgs are the 50 or so best of all time characterized as follows. Obv some personal bias here

GOATs

bradman
Sobers

Inner Circle ATG (20)

hobbs
Hammond
Sutcliffe
Hutton
Gavaskar
tendulkar
Lara
Richards
Smith
Gilchrist
Steyn
Mcgrath
Ambrose
Hadlee
Imran
Akram
Lillee
Warne
Murali
grinmett


ATGs (28)
Sehwag
Sangakkara
Khan
Inzamam
Dravid
Ponting
Kohli
Williamson
Root
Mirandad
Border
Barrington
Chappell
Pollock
Miller
Headley
Weekes
Walcott
Knot
Younis
Walsh
Anderson
Trueman
Lindwall
Davidson
O’Reilly
Ashwin
Kumble

Right in my categorization i consider inner circle to be ATG and the rest as regular 'greats'.

 

[subshakerz]

Games in Australia: 10 (because they play each other so often I'm genuinely unsure if this is all his opportunities or not)
Games in England: 7 (solid average tbf)
Games in SA: 3
Games in NZ: 1

India have toured SA and NZ at least twice during his time.

He's your classic ATVG cricketer. There's nothing wrong with it at all, but he ain't great. Great players bolster the squad, not require depth for their own replacement.

Exactly. ATGs are fixed in the squad.