How would 80s WI and 2000s Australia fare in unbeatable current India?

[Xix2565]

3. I do think this is probably the smallest factor of the three but it is still definitely a significant factor - this generation (and I'm including the Rahane/Pujara generation in this) of Indian batsmen just aren't as good against spin as Sehwag, Tendulkar, Dravid and Laxman. There doesn't have to be a reason or explanation for that, you just get that sometimes.

I don't get 3 at all tbh. It isn't like all the players of the generation you praised were infallible or a complete tier above, at best you can argue for only 3 players to be held above, and they definitely didn't succeed all the time when conditions were difficult. It's not like playing spin has remained constant either.

This just sounds like a roundabout way of saying people are worse now because they get out more.

 

[Coronis]

I don't get 3 at all tbh. It isn't like all the players of the generation you praised were infallible or a complete tier above, at best you can argue for only 3 players to be held above, and they definitely didn't succeed all the time when conditions were difficult. It's not like playing spin has remained constant either.

This just sounds like a roundabout way of saying people are worse now because they get out more.

Its ok if you don’t get it

 

[ma1978]

The averages for visiting spinners in India is no higher in the Ashwin / Jadeja era than the Kumble era.

the gap between home and visiting is far higher in the Ashwin / Jadeja era

 

[subshakerz]

The averages for visiting spinners in India is no higher in the Ashwin / Jadeja era than the Kumble era.

the gap between home and visiting is far higher in the Ashwin / Jadeja era

What is the Kumble era you are using? And are you saying that visiting spinners averages are lower now?

 

[OverratedSanity]

I think it's a mixture of three things.

1. It is kind of is the wickets, at least more than you're giving them credit. Yes there have always been spinning wickets in India, but the percentage of real turners from Day 1 has really increased in this era. It's why I don't rate Ashwin or Jadeja quite as highly as some here, but also why I think Kohli's career has started to become a bit underrated.

2. Opposition spinners have much more exposure to Indian conditions and specialist coaching now than they have in previous eras. They're better at bowling spin in Indian surfaces now because they do it so much more often from a young age now that India has basically become the new home of cricket.

3. I do think this is probably the smallest factor of the three but it is still definitely a significant factor - this generation (and I'm including the Rahane/Pujara generation in this) of Indian batsmen just aren't as good against spin as Sehwag, Tendulkar, Dravid and Laxman. There doesn't have to be a reason or explanation for that, you just get that sometimes.

Agree except for 3 being the smallest factor. It's almost as big as the pitches. This generation of batsmen sucked against spin. Pujara and Kohli were terrific at their peak against spin but post 2019 or so its been dreadful. Only Rohit and Pant were players I'd classify as excellent vs spin (Jaiswal has potential).

 

[subshakerz]

Agree except for 3 being the smallest factor. It's almost as big as the pitches. This generation of batsmen sucked against spin. Pujara and Kohli were terrific at their peak against spin but post 2019 or so its been dreadful. Only Rohit and Pant were players I'd classify as excellent vs spin (Jaiswal has potential).

I think it is fair to say though that superior spin playing quality really emerges on traditional Indian pitches which are spin friendly but start solid and break down over the course of 5 days.

Otherwise, on a lottery pitch, even the great Indian batting lineups of the 2000s ended up giving 6-9 to a bowler like Clarke.

 

[capt_Luffy]

I think it is fair to say though that superior spin playing quality really emerges on traditional Indian pitches which are spin friendly but start solid and break down over the course of 5 days.

Otherwise, on a lottery pitch, even the great Indian batting lineups of the 2000s ended up giving 6-9 to a bowler like Clarke.

Shut the **** up dude. India did made like 3-4 lottery pitches in the last decade and the half. Just because you think so doesn't means pitches like the recent NZ - Ind one was pitch lottery.
Oh and remind me who took a 10-fer when the mighty Windies fell to the Australians??

 

[honestbharani]

1. It is kind of is the wickets, at least more than you're giving them credit. Yes there have always been spinning wickets in India, but the percentage of real turners from Day 1 has really increased in this era. It's why I don't rate Ashwin or Jadeja quite as highly as some here, but also why I think Kohli's career has started to become a bit underrated.

Wont explain why we were bloody good batting on those till 2019 and randomly became poor from 2021. The wickets have not changed much, if at all, between 2016-19 and 2021-24. The only rank turners we have had are the 2015 ones to RSA and the odd wicket like Pune 2017.

 

[honestbharani]

Its ok if you don’t get it

now try saying that to salty, about the game of cricket itself. I dare you.

 

[Xix2565]

From Aug 1990 to Nov 2008 (Kumble's career) in India:

	Matches	Wickets	Bowling Average	Strike Rate
Indian spinners	71	783	27.94	65.93
Visiting spinners	71	358	42.68	83.98

From Nov 2011 to now (from Ashwin's debut) in India:

	Matches	Wickets	Bowling Average	Strike Rate
Indian spinners	64	825	22.61	49.95
Visiting spinners (excluding AFG vs IRE and WI)	64	503	39.46	67.43

EDIT: The excluded records are of Afghanistan playing Ireland and West Indies in Tests, not of any of them vs India.

 

[capt_Luffy]

From Aug 1990 to Nov 2008 (Kumble's career) in India:

	Matches	Wickets	Bowling Average	Strike Rate
Indian spinners	71	783	27.94	65.93
Visiting spinners	71	358	42.68	83.98

From Nov 2011 to now (from Ashwin's debut) in India:

	Matches	Wickets	Bowling Average	Strike Rate
Indian spinners	64	825	22.61	49.95
Visiting spinners (excluding AFG vs IRE and WI)	64	503	39.46	67.43

It shows that teams try to go with more spinners than any huge gulf in quality of current batters.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Wont explain why we were bloody good batting on those till 2019 and randomly became poor from 2021. The wickets have not changed much, if at all, between 2016-19 and 2021-24. The only rank turners we have had are the 2015 ones to RSA and the odd wicket like Pune 2017.

Actually I do think pitches became spicier since India’s loss to Eng in 2021 on a flat pitch

Would be interested in seeing spinners stats from Ashwins debut up to the first test v Eng and spinners stats since the second test v Eng

 

[honestbharani]

Actually I do I think pitches became spicier since India’s loss to Eng in 2021 on a flat pitch

They did not coz he himself made a 100 on one of them.

Look, I watched every game of all these series and the only raging turners we produced were against Aus and we lost both of those tests anyways, funnily enough. Rest were just tracks that aided spin bowling at worst.

 

[Coronis]

From Aug 1990 to Nov 2008 (Kumble's career) in India:

	Matches	Wickets	Bowling Average	Strike Rate
Indian spinners	71	783	27.94	65.93
Visiting spinners	71	358	42.68	83.98

From Nov 2011 to now (from Ashwin's debut) in India:

	Matches	Wickets	Bowling Average	Strike Rate
Indian spinners	64	825	22.61	49.95
Visiting spinners (excluding AFG vs IRE and WI)	64	503	39.46	67.43

lol @ excluding WI

 

[ma1978]

lol @ excluding WI

wont make a difference. The gap between home and visiting spinners is wider than ever

 

[Coronis]

wont make a difference. The gap between home and visiting spinners is wider than ever

Its just excluding Windies is stupid. They’re not even the worst spinning team away from home in that time period, nor are they anywhere near as bad as some of the teams in Kumble’s time. You’d be better off excluding the Windies during Kumble’s career than Ashwin’s.

Sick of people considering the Windies minnow level when they haven’t been.

 

[Xix2565]

lol @ excluding WI

No, IND vs WI is here, just not AFG vs WI.

 

[capt_Luffy]

lol @ excluding WI

Why should we account for Afghanistan vs WI??

 

[subshakerz]

Shut the **** up dude. India did made like 3-4 lottery pitches in the last decade and the half. Just because you think so doesn't means pitches like the recent NZ - Ind one was pitch lottery.
Oh and remind me who took a 10-fer when the mighty Windies fell to the Australians??

I think you need to calm down. My comment wasn't even on prevelance of such pitches which we have already debated.

As for the recent one, it was a somewhat lottery pitch, obviously not as bad as Pune 2017 but spicy enough that it levels the playing field between quality and ordinary spinners.

 

[capt_Luffy]

I think you need to calm down. My comment wasn't even on prevelance of such pitches which we have already debated.

As for the recent one, it was a somewhat lottery pitch, obviously not as bad as Pune 2017 but spicy enough that it levels the playing field between quality and ordinary spinners.

Can't you just accept that maybe, just maybe; Santner bowled really well?