Hayden calls subcontinental batsmen 'selfish'

[Sanz]

but if there is a niggling doubt already there, then I would say it will affect them

And so if thats the case, nice one hayden, you did a good job

What if it affects them in a positive way and they forget about any personal milestone (assuming that they play for personal goals) and the theory backfires ?

Would you still call it as a nice job ?

 

[Son Of Coco]

When you talk about a Subcontinent batsman, the first names comes to the name is 'SACHIN TENDULKAR'.

As for Hayden dominating every attack in past few years, how about his dominating performance against Bangladesh in the home series last year ?

Again, that's one series. I think, if you were being fair, you'd admit that Hayden has been a pretty dominating batsman since he came back to Test and OD cricket. Hayden didn't say all subcontinental batsmen, and given Tendulkar's rate of scoring a sensible mind would come to the conclusion that he's not talking about him.

 

[Son Of Coco]

Yeah right and hayden, whom you are trying to defend so had, had done a through analysis on subcontinent batsmen to come up with such conclusion.

And you shouldn't even talk about the validity of my argument just because Hayden has played 90 odd odis, Guess what Tendulkar has played 339 ODI matches (4 times that of Hayden) and If a writer can pick one innings and analyze it ball by ball and then come to the conclusion that Tendulkar is selfish than what can I say ?

I think he's played them enough and is an experienced enough cricketer to come up with an opinion on it.

My point was that your method of looking at the stats is flawed, and I wasn't comparing who had played the most ODI's I was talking about taking one innings out of their career and using it as (apparently) conclusive evidence that a batsman either was, or wasn't, accelerating their scoring rate through the innings. Who has picked out one of Tendulkar's innings and said he was selfish?

I also didn't say anything about the validity of your argument - you're of the opinion that Hayden shouldn't have said what he said, and I honestly don't think what he said even matters, but am of the opinion that the idea that he might even have the slightest of points is not a ridiculous one. You're entitled to your opinion, as am I mine.

If you spent less time trying to read between the lines and more time reading what's on the actual page, there'd be less confusion for both of us. Oh, and you don't have to say anything about a writer who'd pick one innings out of a career and try to make out that it meant something, because in my opinion that person would be a first-class idiot.

 

[Son Of Coco]

No Ifs and Buts. India has a lot of talent in batting but that is all negated by its aweful bowling talent.

Btw Aussie teams of 1995-97 were doing as bad as India has been doing now with talented players like Warne, Mcgrath, Waugh brothers,Gillespie, Bevan etc. Is it possible that they were playing for personal milestone rather than victory ?

You need to look outside the square a bit mate, there's more than one answer for every dilemma. Every team that does bad from now on won't be doing so due to playing for personal reason, but some possibly will. It is entirely possible that the Australian team were playing for personal milestones when you say they were playing badly (I can't remember them losing many series in a row for a long time, but anyway) but it could have also been due to something else, just like this case we're talking about now.

 

[marc71178]

Mistakes are corrected as well Check this one out Hayden 1st 50 in 38 balls for next 50 runs he took 60 balls. Had he batted little faster Australia could have won the game

And look at the context of the innings.

Aus lost 2 quick wickets around the time he got to 50 so were suddenly 3 down and needing consolidation...

 

[Pratters]

I think you should read that first sentence again - "a century in India would be cherished by an Australian batsman even if they lost because historically it's been tough for them to win there". I, for one, don't think any of the Aussie batsman would walk away from the series happy if the team lost and they scored a century. I don't think Hayden walked away happy on a team level from the last series - maybe that's what he's talking about.

A century in India by an Aussie would be cherished. Its tougher conditions and runs made when the going is tough is more valued. Players would be much much more happier to trade that century with a team win.

But a century in India would be cherished neverthless even if they lost the series.

 

[Tim]

I totally agree with Hayden. And i've said it myself a number of times on this forum.

It just seems to me that many subcontinent players (and im not suggesting its subcontinent players alone) want personal glory before team glory.
I remember at Cricinfo before the Asia Cup, Sehwag was talking about wanting to hit the first 200 in ODI's rather than winning the Asia Cup.

I think there is also a problem with the fact that when a batsman gets out he's not too worried because the next batsman can do it.

 

[GermanShepherd]

i think its just another over-reaction to be honest by supporters of India (I dont think anyone else has moaned about it)...but I am glad it has been acknowledged that its just mind games.

Does it even matter what a player says...but if it is something that has been observed by the Australian players then it is a valid point to make...in the same way if it was Brian Lara saying it, or Ntini or Oram..it doesnt matter..the point is its because an Aussie has said it that there is this reaction.

some people just need to let go!!!!!

This is very rich coming from you.
An over-reaction, eh ? You were foremost among those Aussie/English supporters who were trying to convince us all that Sehwag was definitely talking about going for a 200 in a game against the UAE, despite the fact that in his interview he spoke in completely general terms.

You're so full of **** Swervy.

 

[Slow Love™]

Hayden didn't say all subcontinental batsmen, and given Tendulkar's rate of scoring a sensible mind would come to the conclusion that he's not talking about him.

Hayden was even more sweeping than that. He said "pretty much all subcontinental teams are like that".

Oh, and you don't have to say anything about a writer who'd pick one innings out of a career and try to make out that it meant something, because in my opinion that person would be a first-class idiot.

I completely agree with you - unfortunately that's the main body of the argument being mounted to prove that Hayden has a point. The reason he's addressing it is because it was brought up as evidence of Hayden's claims. So surely he's perfectly entitled to argue the point.

You guys (particularly Swervy, who has no right to comment on how obsessional or reactionary Sanz is, given just how much time he's devoted to this thread) aren't aware of how unfair you're being. Hayden made a provocative comment - like I said earlier, good luck to him. Before this became "OMG, Sanz, stop overreacting and stop using this thread as an excuse to slam Australians" (perhaps the silliest argument in this thread, when you think about it), it just made sense to me that Sanz would take issue with the comment. Why does he have to acknowledge that Hayden has a point if he genuinely doesn't think so? How ridiculous.

As I wrote earlier, I get ****ed when people make comments about Waugh being a selfish player for Australia. It actually happens quite often - it doesn't make it true, and I think it's garbage. Probably a lot of Australian fans would be with me on that. If somebody says to me "but surely you can acknowledge that those critical of Waugh have a point", I say bulldust, I don't think they do. And that's nothing different from what Sanz is doing in this thread.

If somebody wants to say they agree with Hayden, sure, go ahead - but it's ridiculous to keep accusing Sanz of being so irrational. I do have to wonder though why this prioritisation of individual milestones seems to go on hold when they're putting Australia to the sword in test cricket. If Ganguly was to say that the Australians were lazy or careless in general (or even better, using the context that Hayden used, that ANGLO players were lazy and careless), there'd be a friggin' line of Aussies, Kiwis, Poms etc doing exactly what Sanz is doing in this thread.

Nuff said.

 

[FRAZ]

well I dont know..it would appear that a fairly large chunk of that population think Tendulkar is a choker...I think maybe some times you can be so passionate about something that you cant see the wood for the trees.

You see Sanz, I am keeping an open mind on all this... many (but by no means all) Indians on this forum seem particularly obsessed with averages etc as a measure of how good a player is, quite often with a complete disregard of actually how a batsman does actually bat...from that maybe we can assume that these milestones and averages etc are pretty damned important to the general Indian supporter.

Now there is a lot of pressure on these players to perform...it wouldnt surprise me (and I would understand it as well) if somewhere in the back of these players minds is the little thing of 'well, I have a hundred to play for here'.....it would be understandable because of the pressure they are under (although a bit dissapointing , considering they are playing a team game and are professional sportsman)..so in that way it would not surprise me if there is an element of truth in what Hayden is saying.

Now if it isnt true it wouldnt surprise me either, they are playing for there country and should be playing to win at all costs,and willing to sacrifice their wickets for the good of the team..and I would say that I think this does happen in 99% of the innings played by India, Pakistan, and everyother country in the world

However, maybe Hayden and the Aussies think that maybe the lack of willing to sacrfice ones wicket in some situations has been noticeable in the last few times they have played each other....no big drama, its life.

Now I think we all now the Aussie team will pick up on anything and try and use it to their advantage..thats all that is happening here...its mind games, nothing to get worked up about.

sanz, I just dont understand how you can be so dismissive of someone elses opinions, just becuase you dont happen to agree with them ...Hayden stated his opinion..and he is entitled to it. All most of us on here have done have entertained the idea that there maybe an element of truth in there..nothing more, nothing less.

SWERVY man , You are right . I am always been agaist this average thing and the record thing etc etc . You are right . But beware of people like bhaji and others . As there is an old saying in Hindi which traslates like "Its Useless to bagpipe in front of a buffalo" . You know what, I am avoiding to speak the full truth here on this forum . Because I thought that only the people from good backgrounds are coming here and despite from their patriotic biasdism they are still good from inside few examples like Nikhl and masterblaster and Yaju guy .But I am ashamed after watching the last post by Bhaji and its emberrassing for me because first of all i am not a professional poster on any other forum on web . I dont have much of time to waste . What ever Bhaji said I swear no body has ever said it face to face to me because That face was never gonna be intact . ....... I remember In a forum called "Maurice Odumbe banned " , I just happened to say that The mafia is strong in Mumbai and it should be noticed then in the reply I got so much that I cant imagine and imagine from Which coutry's fans. Pathetic . I am really ashamed .

 

[GermanShepherd]

It just seems to me that many subcontinent players (and im not suggesting its subcontinent players alone) want personal glory before team glory.
I remember at Cricinfo before the Asia Cup, Sehwag was talking about wanting to hit the first 200 in ODI's rather than winning the Asia Cup.

I cannot believe the number of people who took his comments out of context.

Sehwag was asked pointedly in that pre-match interview -- if he had any personal goals -- and he replied that he would like to score a 200 in a ODi.
He was then asked if he believed a weak team was necessary to achieve that - and his response was that no its achievable against any side provided an opener can stay in for 50 overs.
So how that got turned into the argument that he was particularly aiming to score the 200 in the UAE game, I have no idea. Jumping to conclusions come to mind....

Never mind the fact, that he also stated in that interview he wanted to be a consistent opener for his team -- that got conveniently overlooked.

 

[Slow Love™]

You know what, I am avoiding to speak the full truth here on this forum . Because I thought that only the people from good backgrounds are coming here and despite from their patriotic biasdism they are still good from inside few examples like Nikhl and masterblaster and Yaju guy .But I am ashamed after watching the last post by Bhaji and its emberrassing for me because first of all i am not a professional poster on any other forum on web . I dont have much of time to waste . What ever Bhaji said I swear no body has ever said it face to face to me because That face was never gonna be intact . But any ways we are all wrong about India . Its the best and never wrong .......

I shudder to think of what you're trying to say here. It reads like a veiled attack on Indians in general.

 

[FRAZ]

I shudder to think of what you're trying to say here. It reads like a veiled attack on Indians in general.

Thats wrong dude . I am trying to cool down the damn things . Just read properly what ever I said and go and see the last post by Bhaji and go and check the forum "Maurice Odumbe ....some thing some thing" . And then tell me what happened . Plzz dont pass a judgement without seeing the facts . Plzz .... I also said that only some are saying that in general i always praise others who write good . Plzz dont try to spark some thing dude .Thanx a lot.. Partyush guy is writing good here and only some are obsessed with patriotic crap ...

 

[Slow Love™]

is anyone really trying to defend Hayden here...its hardly worth defending coz there really isnt anything to defend him over...all I have been saying and I think maybe SoC maybe saying is that in some possible way, maybe, just maybe,Hayden might have a glimmer of a point...you never know, he may have overheard someone in the Indian team or managemnent or whatever say something ...we dont know

Certainly, you are defending Hayden. And for god's sake, drop the "insider info" thing... It makes me laugh every time you bring it up, and I keep imagining Hayden in camo' gear, with his ear cupped outside John Wright's hotel room, or bugging Dorairajan's samosas.

 

[Slow Love™]

Thats wrong dude . I am trying to cool down the damn things . Just read properly what ever I said and go and see the last post by Bhaji and go and check the forum "Maurice Odumbe ....some thing some thing" . And then tell me what happened . Plzz dont pass a judgement without seeing the facts . Plzz .... I also said that only some are saying that in general i always praise others who write good .

Yeah, I saw what Bhaji did, and he was an ass who deserved to be banned. But what I'm saying is what the hell does he have to do with this thread? Nobody in this discussion has behaved anything like that. It seems more like an effort to inflame things then cool them down. It sounded like an effort to paint Indians with a broad brush (by pointing out the few "exceptions") to me.

 

[FRAZ]

Yeah, I saw what Bhaji did, and he was an ass who deserved to be banned. But what I'm saying is what the hell does he have to do with this thread? Nobody in this discussion has behaved anything like that. It seems more like an effort to inflame things then cool them down, if you ask me. It sounded like an effort to paint Indians with a broad brush (by pointing out the few "exceptions") to me.

No thats not right man . Why dont you understand . Look at my first post in this thread that was in favour of what ever Hayden said . I am just saying that why some are taking it personal , Its a fact and an absolute fact and thats about it .... And Bhaji thing came into my attention just by now so got to say some thing about it atleast cuz that thread is closed now . And remember there is not only one Bhaji there are many Bhajis in other countries too . thanx guy

 

[FRAZ]

why is it a silly remark..he probably knows more about the mentality of his opposing players more than anyone of us does

good one dude.
And who are us just the ordinary posters.

 

[Slow Love™]

good one dude.
And who are us just the ordinary posters.

Yeah, I know. I always found Ranatunga's comments to be particularly insightful (especially when he called Warne useless before the recent Sri Lanka tour, and when he ridiculed Aussies for being convicts), 'cause like, he's played international cricket, and we haven't.

 

[FRAZ]

Yeah, I saw what Bhaji did, and he was an ass who deserved to be banned. But what I'm saying is what the hell does he have to do with this thread? Nobody in this discussion has behaved anything like that. It seems more like an effort to inflame things then cool them down. It sounded like an effort to paint Indians with a broad brush (by pointing out the few "exceptions") to me.

Yo , its just one simple example of what I wanted to say . Obviously which team does'nt wanna have Shoaib in their side . Any ways this example can prove me right and kill this stupid topic and continue onwards.
http://www.cricketweb.net/forum/showthread.php?t=7574&page=1&pp=15

 

[FRAZ]

By the way I did'nt see many discussing about Inzamam .
He was like what ever Hayden said . any ways ....