Hayden calls subcontinental batsmen 'selfish'

[Sanz]

Yes, clearly, if you go back to 2000 for just India (coincidentally the earlier games being the ones where India scored more runs per innings - that's very good of you isn't it)

You know what I did it myself Cut off date 2000-01-01. (It looks like I was doing you a favor by not including figures from 2000)

Eng 197
SA - 219.7
Ind - 234.7
NZ - 201.5
Pak - 195.5
SL - 198.6

 

[Sanz]

hahaha...he scored therefore 43 in his last 46 balls, which means he sped up by quite some way.. For someone so heavily into the scorecards, I think you need to brush up on your maths

Oops, I am sorry, that was one fked up analysis by me. what was I thinking

 

[Swervy]

Oops, I am sorry, that was one fked up analysis by me. what was I thinking

hahaha..mistakes are made..life goes on

 

[Son Of Coco]

When a team usually loses a lot, the fans, media and the players start paying much more importance to individual milestones. A century in India would be cherished by an Australian batsman even if the team loses there because historically it has been tough to win there for Australia.

The problem occurs when individuals give a bit more importance to indiviual milestones than the winning itself.

Slowing down a bit while approaching a century is not uncommon in any level of cricket in any cricket though. It has happened and will continue to happen forever. Cricket is a mental game and one tends to be more cautious while approaching a century. Sidhu ofcourse is the exception to this rule

As a team starts winning more often, it becomes crucial to keep winning rather than achieving the milestones. The bigger picture of giving priority to win a game finally becomes clear.

This has been a change noticed in Indian cricket. It will become much more true for Pakistan now after Woolmer has become coach. Sri Lanka still tend to give a lot of importance to individual milestones. This is because the batting friendly pitches there keep helping them achieve these milestones....

I think you should read that first sentence again - "a century in India would be cherished by an Australian batsman even if they lost because historically it's been tough for them to win there". I, for one, don't think any of the Aussie batsman would walk away from the series happy if the team lost and they scored a century. I don't think Hayden walked away happy on a team level from the last series - maybe that's what he's talking about.

I agree with what you said for the rest though. Although I'd suggest Gilchrist and Hayden may be other exceptions. Astle could probably be thrown in there too.........as well as others that I can't be bothered thinking of. haha

 

[Son Of Coco]

Incase you didn't know Sachin Tendulkar has a better strike rate than Hayden in ODIs. So much for scoring fast. Yeah mate, Tendulkar is selfish still has a better strike rate.

As for him scoring faster for his 380, There is difference in the attacks he and Lara were facing.

I don't remember saying Tendulkar was selfish, but anyway. Yeah, Hayden hasn't exactly dominated every attack in test cricket over the past few years has he?

 

[Sanz]

hahaha..mistakes are made..life goes on

Mistakes are corrected as well Check this one out Hayden 1st 50 in 38 balls for next 50 runs he took 60 balls. Had he batted little faster Australia could have won the game

http://www.cricinfo.com/link_to_dat...BS/SCORECARDS/AUS_IND_VBS_ODI5_18JAN2004.html

 

[Son Of Coco]

If Hayden is so unselfish and some Aussie fans have claimed that he scores at a faster rate than others then why is his strike rate lower than other Subcontinent openers like Sachin Tendulkar, Sanath Jaisurya, Saeed Anwar, Sehwag etc ?

Let me guess, Cricinfo is an Indian/english site and they must have cooked up the record books. Not fair at all.

I don't remember Hayden saying all subcontinental batsmen bat like that.......anyway, continue on with the 4 balls you've found Hayden slowing down here, the game Tendulkar accelerated, etc etc it's riveting stuff.

If you have any knowledge of stats you'll realise that a sample size of 1 or 2 innings from a career of 50 - 100+ isn't exactly valid - and in saying this I mean for both sides of the argument. Finding an innings here or there where a certain player didn't do this or did do that means nothing over the span of a career.

 

[Swervy]

Mistakes are corrected as well Check this one out Hayden 1st 50 in 38 balls for next 50 runs he took 60 balls. Had he batted little faster Australia could have won the game

http://www.cricinfo.com/link_to_dat...BS/SCORECARDS/AUS_IND_VBS_ODI5_18JAN2004.html

can something like the 15 over field restrictions not be the reason for that as well as the steady fall of wickets

 

[Sanz]

I don't remember saying Tendulkar was selfish, but anyway. Yeah, Hayden hasn't exactly dominated every attack in test cricket over the past few years has he?

When you talk about a Subcontinent batsman, the first names comes to the name is 'SACHIN TENDULKAR'.

As for Hayden dominating every attack in past few years, how about his dominating performance against Bangladesh in the home series last year ?

 

[Sanz]

can something like the 15 over field restrictions not be the reason for that as well as the steady fall of wickets

Is it possible that Sachin Tendulkar would have had similar restriction in the first 15 overs ?

 

[Swervy]

Is it possible that Sachin Tendulkar would have had similar restriction in the first 15 overs ?

I dont know maybe yes..but its not about the straight looking at how many runs scored off how many balls in certain sections of the innings...its how the batsman plays that is the issue I think!!!!!

 

[Sanz]

If you have any knowledge of stats you'll realise that a sample size of 1 or 2 innings from a career of 50 - 100+ isn't exactly valid - and in saying this I mean for both sides of the argument. Finding an innings here or there where a certain player didn't do this or did do that means nothing over the span of a career.

Yeah right and hayden, whom you are trying to defend so had, had done a through analysis on subcontinent batsmen to come up with such conclusion.

And you shouldn't even talk about the validity of my argument just because Hayden has played 90 odd odis, Guess what Tendulkar has played 339 ODI matches (4 times that of Hayden) and If a writer can pick one innings and analyze it ball by ball and then come to the conclusion that Tendulkar is selfish than what can I say ?

 

[Sanz]

I dont know maybe yes..but its not about the straight looking at how many runs scored off how many balls in certain sections of the innings...its how the batsman plays that is the issue I think!!!!!

And dont you think that 1 billion Indians who watch the game with so much passion would observe that If Indian batsmen keep doing that consistently ?

 

[Swervy]

Yeah right and hayden, whom you are trying to defend so had, had done a through analysis on subcontinent batsmen to come up with such conclusion.

And you shouldn't even talk about the validity of my argument just because Hayden has played 90 odd odis, Guess what Tendulkar has played 339 ODI matches (4 times that of Hayden) and If a writer can pick one innings and analyze it ball by ball and then come to the conclusion that Tendulkar is selfish than what can I say ?

is anyone really trying to defend Hayden here...its hardly worth defending coz there really isnt anything to defend him over...all I have been saying and I think maybe SoC maybe saying is that in some possible way, maybe, just maybe,Hayden might have a glimmer of a point...you never know, he may have overheard someone in the Indian team or managemnent or whatever say something ...we dont know

One thing is for sure, if it winds the Indian players up like its winding you up, India are done for.

What I dont understand is why I havent found any other reference to this interview with Hayden anywhere but here.

 

[Swervy]

And dont you think that 1 billion Indians who watch the game with so much passion would observe that If Indian batsmen keep doing that consistently ?

well I dont know..it would appear that a fairly large chunk of that population think Tendulkar is a choker...I think maybe some times you can be so passionate about something that you cant see the wood for the trees.

You see Sanz, I am keeping an open mind on all this... many (but by no means all) Indians on this forum seem particularly obsessed with averages etc as a measure of how good a player is, quite often with a complete disregard of actually how a batsman does actually bat...from that maybe we can assume that these milestones and averages etc are pretty damned important to the general Indian supporter.

Now there is a lot of pressure on these players to perform...it wouldnt surprise me (and I would understand it as well) if somewhere in the back of these players minds is the little thing of 'well, I have a hundred to play for here'.....it would be understandable because of the pressure they are under (although a bit dissapointing , considering they are playing a team game and are professional sportsman)..so in that way it would not surprise me if there is an element of truth in what Hayden is saying.

Now if it isnt true it wouldnt surprise me either, they are playing for there country and should be playing to win at all costs,and willing to sacrifice their wickets for the good of the team..and I would say that I think this does happen in 99% of the innings played by India, Pakistan, and everyother country in the world

However, maybe Hayden and the Aussies think that maybe the lack of willing to sacrfice ones wicket in some situations has been noticeable in the last few times they have played each other....no big drama, its life.

Now I think we all now the Aussie team will pick up on anything and try and use it to their advantage..thats all that is happening here...its mind games, nothing to get worked up about.

sanz, I just dont understand how you can be so dismissive of someone elses opinions, just becuase you dont happen to agree with them ...Hayden stated his opinion..and he is entitled to it. All most of us on here have done have entertained the idea that there maybe an element of truth in there..nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Sanz]

Okk. I have one question though, would you respect someone's opinion who makes a sweeping statement that Australian batsmen are selfish ??

 

[Sanz]

One thing is for sure, if it winds the Indian players up like its winding you up, India are done for.

What I dont understand is why I havent found any other reference to this interview with Hayden anywhere but here.

You should try reading some Aussie newspapers :-

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/08/23/1093246443480.html?oneclick=true

"....counties like India suffer from that. We back ourselves against those countries because they'll get two or three players in the 70s and beyond, and they'll be eyeing off that personal landmark and it'll cost their side 40 or 50 runs as a result. Pretty much all the subcontinental sides are like that. They really can waste a lot of time, and there's no time to waste. Every ball has got to have a priority stamp on it."

And dont worry about Indian players, they have a professional coach to handle such issues, they are also mature enough to understand the timing of this statement. I hope they dont open their mouth and respond to the garbage and just let their bats do the talking.

 

[Swervy]

Okk. I have one question though, would you respect someone's opinion who makes a sweeping statement that Australian batsmen are selfish ??

If Australia had a lot of talent and were losing plenty of games, I think I would certainly consider that players thoughts on the matter as something to think about and ceratinly not dismiss it as being absolutely wrong.

 

[Swervy]

You should try reading some Aussie newspapers :-

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/08/23/1093246443480.html?oneclick=true

"....counties like India suffer from that. We back ourselves against those countries because they'll get two or three players in the 70s and beyond, and they'll be eyeing off that personal landmark and it'll cost their side 40 or 50 runs as a result. Pretty much all the subcontinental sides are like that. They really can waste a lot of time, and there's no time to waste. Every ball has got to have a priority stamp on it."

And dont worry about Indian players, they have a professional coach to handle such issues, they are also mature enough to understand the timing of this statement. I hope they dont open their mouth and respond to the garbage and just let their bats do the talking.

yeah read the article (again)..and good for Indian players if they dont take it to heart...if they know deep down that its rubbish then no problems...but if there is a niggling doubt already there, then I would say it will affect them

And so if thats the case, nice one hayden, you did a good job

 

[Sanz]

If Australia had a lot of talent and were losing plenty of games, I think I would certainly consider that players thoughts on the matter as something to think about and ceratinly not dismiss it as being absolutely wrong.

No Ifs and Buts. India has a lot of talent in batting but that is all negated by its aweful bowling talent.

Btw Aussie teams of 1995-97 were doing as bad as India has been doing now with talented players like Warne, Mcgrath, Waugh brothers,Gillespie, Bevan etc. Is it possible that they were playing for personal milestone rather than victory ?