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Greatest Ever Test XI

a massive zebra

International Captain
Jack Hobbs
Sunil Gavaskar
Don Bradman (cpt)
Graeme Pollock
Walter Hammond
Gary Sobers
Adam Gilchrist (wk)
Imran Khan
Malcolm Marshall
Muttiah Muralitharan
Sydney Barnes

12th Man: Richard Hadlee
 

C_C

International Captain
woudnt include Pollock or Hammond over Tendulkar/Richards/Lara/Tugga/Punter/Dravid/Barrington.
 

Marius

International Debutant
Here's my SA Post Isolation Test XI

Gibbs
Smith
G Kirsten
Kallis
Cullinan
Cronje (c)
Boucher
Pollock
Boje
Ntini
Donald

I know Hansie was a lying cheating SOB but he was still a brilliant skipper and although his batting never reached its potential, he was still a more than useful middle-order bat. Brian McMillan, Fanie de Villiers, Kepler Wessels, Andrew Hudson, Craig Matthews, and Dave Richardson are all unlucky to miss out.
 

C_C

International Captain
i would personally go for McMillan over Cronje and deVillers over Boje....McMillan offers more value- not much worse batting but much better bowling and fielding.....deVillers was an absolute gem of a bowler...Boje is ordinary.
 

Marius

International Debutant
Got a point there with Big Mac. Just thought we needed a spinner. To be honest Claude Henderson has probably been SA's best spinner in the last ten or so years, but in terms of guys who have played more than a handful of matches, Boje stands head and shoulders above Pat Symcox, and Robin Rubbishson, and shades Paul Adams, who has become more useless the longer he's played.
 

a massive zebra

International Captain
C_C said:
woudnt include Pollock or Hammond over Tendulkar/Richards/Lara/Tugga/Punter/Dravid/Barrington.
Tendulkar generally only scores runs in good conditions when it suits him, he is not a match winner or a match saver. Rarely plays a truly great innings.

Richards made hey against the weaker teams but struggled immensely against the best attacks of his time such as Pakistan/New Zealand. You need to do it against the best.

Dravid makes a good case but Pollock did all that could be asked of him in limited opportunities and one should not forget Hammond was a great slip fielder and useful bowler in addition to being a batsman of similar stature to Dravid.

Barrington not classy enough.

Lara at his best is the best batsman since Bradman, as he has shown against England in 1994, Australia 1998/99 and Sri Lanka 2001/02. He does, however, suffer from sustained periods of mediocrity and I would prefer a reliable great to a inconsistent genius.

Who on earth are Tugga/Punter?
 

C_C

International Captain
Tendulkar generally only scores runs in good conditions when it suits him, he is not a match winner or a match saver. Rarely plays a truly great innings.
which is why he has more runs away from home at a higher average than anyone in history of cricket save Border... i suppose all the home teams really play to tendulkar's strength since he is oh-so-divine.
You clearly missed numerous knocks of his in the past where he singlehandedly propped up the batting time and time again...granted he doesnt do that anymore....but even Viv was a shadow of himself in the last 4-5 years of his career, a zone tendy is in now.
But he has proven a heck of a lot more than Hammond or Pollock has.

Richards made hey against the weaker teams but struggled immensely against the best attacks of his time such as Pakistan/New Zealand. You need to do it against the best.
New Zealand were nowhere close to being one of the best opposition attacks Richards has faced- nowhere close. One man army (hadlee-even though he was one of the best) doesnt make the attack a great one...IND's attack in the 70s, ENG till mid/late 80s, AUS, PAK etc. all had consistently superior attacks than NZ.

And in that era, nobody really made hay. Richards didnt face the same callibre of attacks the likes of Gavaskar or Border did, but he faced attacks a few magnitudes better than what Hammond faced....who apart from OZ made hay against attacks that are club-level.

Dravid makes a good case but Pollock did all that could be asked of him in limited opportunities and one should not forget Hammond was a great slip fielder and useful bowler in addition to being a batsman of similar stature to Dravid.
I wouldnt put any of those amatuer dibbly dobblies in the same category as modern day greats save for bradman(who is superior). Today cricket is played much more competitively and is a professional field, as opposed to professionals mixed with part time players or rich dudes who played it for fun.
Dravid is a great slip fielder too and you dont make a case for an alltime team based on your part time bowling skills. If thats so, then Steve Waugh would be there instead of Richards or Tendulkar or Pollock.

And Pollock made a good case but it simply isnt enough. Many many players had similar figures as Pollock after so few matches and came crashing down - Jimmy Adams for example and even Lara/Richards maintained a 60+ average for over double the # of matches Pollock played.
He is good but i wont call anyone with so limited experience Great...if he is great, so is Vinod Kambli or that trini batsman (Charlie Davis ?)

Lara at his best is the best batsman since Bradman, as he has shown against England in 1994, Australia 1998/99 and Sri Lanka 2001/02. He does, however, suffer from sustained periods of mediocrity and I would prefer a reliable great to a inconsistent genius.
Which is why i picked Tendulkar.

oh btw, Tugga = Steve Waugh, Punter = Ponting.
 

FaaipDeOiad

Hall of Fame Member
C_C said:
And Pollock made a good case but it simply isnt enough. Many many players had similar figures as Pollock after so few matches and came crashing down - Jimmy Adams for example and even Lara/Richards maintained a 60+ average for over double the # of matches Pollock played.
Pollock continued to dominate all through his enforced stay in first class cricket though, like Barry Richards. I don't put them in all-time XIs because they didn't have the chance to do it all at the highest possible level, but Pollock for me would be in my all-time second XI, missing out on the first XI only because he played so few matches.

And I rate both Lara and Hammond higher than Tendulkar, as great as he is.

My picks for the 4 and 5 spots if playing with 6 batsmen are Hammond and Greg Chappell. Other considerations are Richards, Headley, Lara and Steve Waugh. If going for 5 batsmen, take your pick out of Hammond and Chappell and put Sobers at 5. Chappell maybe slightly ahead because of the larger range of quality attacks he faced.
 

C_C

International Captain
Chappell may be slightly ahead ( massive understatement) because of the wider range of quality bowler he faced as compared to Hammond...but not Richards or Tendulkar, who make the attacks Hammond faced (barring OZ) look like club level bowling ?

Interesting bias indeed.

Like i said, rating those fuddy duddy amatuers higher than modern day professionals is a traversity akin to rating Sampras behind bill Tillden or Ayerton Senna behind JM Fangio or rating Pavel Bure behind Maurice Richard, etc etc.

Its ludicrous to say the least.
 

Scallywag

Banned
G Chappel has a better record than Richards and faced better bowling than Richards.

Chapel averaged 56 against the WI in 17 test matches from 71 to 84.
 

chaminda_00

Hall of Fame Member
Scallywag said:
G Chappel has a better record than Richards and faced better bowling than Richards.

Chapel averaged 56 against the WI in 17 test matches from 71 to 84.
What makes u think that Richards wouldn't have averaged more aganist the Windies bowlers, it not a very good reason to state that he is better. You can't down grade a batsmen ability just cus he didn't get to face the same bowlers. You can only face the bowling you were given.
 

FaaipDeOiad

Hall of Fame Member
C_C said:
Chappell may be slightly ahead ( massive understatement) because of the wider range of quality bowler he faced as compared to Hammond...but not Richards or Tendulkar, who make the attacks Hammond faced (barring OZ) look like club level bowling ?
I included Richards and Tendulkar as candidates, did I not? Hammond performed very well against Australia, which had a far from "club level" bowling attack, and to call it such a thing shows the lack of respect you have for performances of players from an entire era you have dismissed without just cause. Bradman alone rated him as one of the best he had seen.

Tendulkar is a great batsman, but his tendancy for making the easy runs and not showing up when the game is on the line does count against him. I am not suggesting that he has never made important runs or anything of the sort, but compared to the likes of Waugh, Lara, Richards etc he does not thrive when the game is on the line, which is what the very best of the best do. Anyway, Richards, Lara, Waugh and so on are all fair replacements and the team would not lose much.

Let me go about this a different way...

Jack Hobbs
Sunil Gavaskar/Herbert Sutcliffe/Len Hutton
Donald Bradman (c)
Walter Hammond/Vivian Richards/Brian Lara/George Headley
Greg Chappell/Steve Waugh/Ken Barrington
Gary Sobers
Adam Gilchrist (k)
Richard Hadlee/Alan Davidson/Imran Khan/Keith Miller
Shane Warne/Muttiah Muralitharan/Bill O'Reilly
Sydney Barnes/Dennis Lillee/Michael Holding/Malcolm Marshall/Fred Trueman
Glenn McGrath/Curtley Ambrose

As far as I'm concerned, any of those selections are valid. Personally I would pick Gavaskar as the second opener, either one of Hammond, Richards or Lara at 4, Chappell at 5, Warne as the spinner and Hadlee and McGrath as two of the seamers. The third seamer is tough and could be any of those listed, but with the other two selections I'd probably go for someone quick, so Lillee, Trueman or Holding would be best.

There are also other valid choices, such as going to 5 batsmen and picking two all-rounders in Miller and Khan and dropping the number 10 seamer.
 

C_C

International Captain
Both G Chappell and Gavaskar's averages are inflated facing WI of dodgy quality...remember that WI didnt have a good attack before 75 or so and in some of the series after that, they fielded debutants and all that... except that Gavaskar still did better than anyone facing the top WI bowling unit while Greg struggled.... Richards also caught NZ bowling while they were peaking as well as Pakistan, which was a superior attack from what Greg faced.
All in all, Greg is a great batsman but i would rate him behind Richards, Tendulkar, Lara, Steve Waugh and Border.
 

Scallywag

Banned
chaminda_00 said:
What makes u think that Richards wouldn't have averaged more aganist the Windies bowlers, it not a very good reason to state that he is better. You can't down grade a batsmen ability just cus he didn't get to face the same bowlers. You can only face the bowling you were given.
Well why on earth can you say Richards is better than Chappel.
 

Scallywag

Banned
C_C said:
except that Gavaskar still did better than anyone facing the top WI bowling unit while Greg struggled.... .
Only in his last couple of tests which you describe as struggling


C_C said:
but even Viv was a shadow of himself in the last 4-5 years of his career.
But Richards suffered the same struggle.
 

chaminda_00

Hall of Fame Member
Scallywag said:
Well why on earth can you say Richards is better than Chappel.
From that response it sounds like you think that Chappell is 10 times better then Richards. It is a pretty even call but i'll go for Richards cus of his ability to win games and take games away from other teams is slightly better then Greg Chappell. Im not saying that Greg couldn't win games off his bat, just that Richards was slightly better. Im sure you'll disagree with me considering ur last response.
 

C_C

International Captain
I included Richards and Tendulkar as candidates, did I not? Hammond performed very well against Australia, which had a far from "club level" bowling attack, and to call it such a thing shows the lack of respect you have for performances of players from an entire era you have dismissed without just cause. Bradman alone rated him as one of the best he had seen.
I said barring OZ... yes, i rate the OZ unit of Lindwall-Miller-Johnston-Grimmett-O'Reiley and Beanaud highly. Rest were all whatever.
Grimmett bowled largely in an era when OZ bowling was akin to SL ( pre 1930)- 1 great/good bowler in grimmett, rest all club standard.
With the emergence of O'Reiley in the 30s, OZ attack had any semblance of respectablity compared to the 1960s and beyond era.

And against a decent/great OZ attack what did Hammond average ? 51.85. That includes his humongous debut series against AUS where he pulverised an aussie attack which can count only Grimmett amongst good/great category.Against a bangladesh-esque new zealand he averaged 112. Against a zimbabwe-esque South Africa he averaged 62. Against a 1980s sri lanka-esque IND he averaged 79. Enough said about his so-called quality. Facing one quality attack against whom you've had success whilst facing 3rd class bowling for over 60% of your career doesnt make you great in my books. Doesnt even make you 'excellent'.

And no, barring a few exceptions ( Bradman, Grimmett, O'Reiley, Ranji, FS Jackson and maybe one or two players here and there), i have very little respect for the pre-war era cricket.
I've been interested in sociology for a while and actually after 99-00 year i spent a year studying sociology.... read in detail the sociological framework and nature of the society you are talkin about (pre war), including sports.
As far as world cricket goes, the consistency was very fractuous. You had the few professional minded players playing alongside players who were amatuers, rich people/nobility who played the sport as a passtime.
Result is you have a pool of players stupendously overachieving ( Babe Ruth scenario) because they get to over-emphasiese their greatness based on exploits that involve both good and horribly sub standard - a standard which is below even the average bangladeshi/zimbabwe player of today. Which is why i think every single player who did excellently in the pre war period would take a hit career-number wise if they played in the post 60s era. For now, your easy wickets are removed as the field quality is a LOT closer.
no longer does your 7fer haul consist of 2-3 batsmen who are high school standard and no longer does your triple century come against a bowling unit who count one or two players with the skill/commitment level of a sunday league player.

Tendulkar is a great batsman, but his tendancy for making the easy runs and not showing up when the game is on the line does count against him.
I think that is a ridiculous comment. Take a so-called pressure player like Steve Waugh.He does better than Steve Waugh in the second team innings where the pitch condition is harder. Tugga has an ordinary 32 average while Tendy has a very good 46 average. He also trumps tugga while chasing a target- when pressure is most on a batsman.
34 average as opposed to 25. Even a so-called great pressure player like Lara averages just a scant 5 pts more than Tendy and whilst lara and steve waugh are so-called pressure players, tendy is a choker. Go figure.

Tendy has numerous knocks where he singlehandedly propped up the side or atleast, made the lion's share of the contribution. I dont need to quote reference to this- just analysing his performance throught he 90s is proof positive enough.
He also averages better than ANYBODY in the post 80s against quality attacks.
NO ONE has played as much as tendulkar and has a higher average against McGrath-Warne-Gillespie-Ambrose-Walsh-Bishop-Akram-Younis-Saqlain-Mushie-Imran-Qadir-Donald-Pollock-deVillers.

in terms of quality opposition faced, Tendy ranks as one of the top - he has faced more quality bowlers than Lara (who didnt have to face his WI bowlers of the 90s) or Waugh (who didnt have to face McGrath-Warne).

So in short, your assertion that tendulkar makes easy runs is quiete ridiculous.
Infact, he has made more runs around the world in more trying circumstances than many of the so-called pressure players like waugh,lara, etc.
As per not thriving when the game is on the line, i would ask you to take a look at hsi performance against PAK in 1999 match.
The only difference between lara's 153 or waugh's 200 is that they had the bowling attack to make it count and the rest didnt fold after one of em left.

To me, Tendulkar is a much better batsman allround than anyone save Bradman. Period.
Lara, Richards, Waugh, Ponting,Dravid etc. all take a backseat to him and dibbly dobblies like hobbs, hammond, woodfull, ponsford etc. dont even figure anywhere.
 

C_C

International Captain
Only in his last couple of tests which you describe as struggling
Last couple of tests are still a part of his career.
Notice that in the last couple of tests gavaskar played against WI, he thrived.
 

FaaipDeOiad

Hall of Fame Member
C_C said:
I've been interested in sociology for a while and actually after 99-00 year i spent a year studying sociology.... read in detail the sociological framework and nature of the society you are talkin about (pre war), including sports.
Fine. Plenty of us are interested in sociology and study it, and plenty of people come up with different interpretations of the nature of sports in the pre-war era to you.

C_C said:
As far as world cricket goes, the consistency was very fractuous. You had the few professional minded players playing alongside players who were amatuers, rich people/nobility who played the sport as a passtime.
This entirely depends on what era you are talking about. If you are discussing pre-test or even to an extent early test cricket, you are right. However by the era in which Hobbs, Bradman, Hammond, Headley and so on played this is well off the money. These people were for all intents and purposes full time cricketers. Yes some of them had other jobs, but nobody who played test cricket in the 30s did it as a "passtime". This was something which took up a SIGNFICANT portion of your life. People trained, went on tours of months in length, and dedicated themselves to improving their game. There is no doubt that some elements of the game were of far lower standard then, but wrapping up a huge era from the beginning of test cricket until world war two and labelling it as one thing is simply idiotic. We are talking about 60 YEARS! This is as long as the period between the end of the war and today! Cricket changed a HUGE amount between 1877 and 1939, and players changed with it. You certainly have a case in saying that W.G. Grace had the advantage of playing in an era in which cricket was not taken as seriously as it was later and benefitted because others did not share his dedication, but to suggest that Hobbs or Bradman had the same advantage is simply way off the mark. And you have shown your rickety knowledge of cricket history in the past, like for example when you claimed that Grace was the first batsman to play with a straight bat.

Another thing you are missing is the difference between test cricket and other forms. In First Class cricket in say 1925, you may well have ran into players who play it in a similar fashion to the way club cricket is played today. That is, they had a job and a life, and on the weekends they went to play cricket with their team, and sometimes they ran into Jack Hobbs and he belted them all over the place and then they went home and didn't worry about it for a week. This is not at all equivalent to test cricket, because test cricket as I have said involved taking up a significant amount of your time with the game, people were far more dedicated and professional and it showed in the standards. Your claim that somebody like say John Ryder was a part-timer and just played cricket as a passtime is ludicrous. He was not paid like players are today and he did not train every day in the nets or have 15 coaches or appear on television every day, but test cricketers lived the lives of professional sportsmen in the 1920s and 1930s. They were interviewed by newspapers and on the radio, they signed autographs and went on tours three months in length to other countries and did nothing but play cricket. They trained with their team, they lived under the direction of their captain when they were on tour and they gave cricket their all because it was the centre of their life.

Dismissing brilliant, dominating performances from this era as having no worth is absolutely ridiculous.

C_C said:
He does better than Steve Waugh in the second team innings where the pitch condition is harder. Tugga has an ordinary 32 average while Tendy has a very good 46 average. He also trumps tugga while chasing a target- when pressure is most on a batsman.
Once again, I am not dismissing Tendulkar as anything other than an all-time great, nor am I claiming that he has never played a vital innings for his country. He does not however consistently thrive when his team needs him the most, and his relatively low number of innings in pressure situations shows this. The Pakistan innings in 1999 for example was fantastic, but so many times when India are in trouble at 2/20 facing an opposition score of 400 or a first innings deficit he gets out for a single figure score, or even worse 30 odd. When he comes in at 2/150, you may well see him hit a century. This is the reason that I rate Lara as the best batsman of the 90s and why I put the likes of Richards, Chappell, Lara etc ahead of him in consideration for a World XI position. I think Tendulkar is a fantastic batsman and one of the best I have ever seen, I just do not think he warrants a place in the world XI.
 

C_C

International Captain
I dont care if they spent 4 months sitting in a boat going all the way around the world.
Point is, even in the test sphere, the quality and competition was far lower than what it is today. I am talking about field competitiveness. The field on cumulative was nowhere as competitive as you saw in the post 50s era. Even in test cricket, OZ, ENG etc. routinely fielded players who wouldnt make anything more than BD or ZIM side today.
Whenever the field quality is spread, you have a few excellent performers who really capitalise on this and get stunning results. That is true and agreed upon by sociologists in any nation-and that is the difference between professional era and amatuer era.
The field quality, simply speaking, is not the same. A lot of those players played full time and held 'nominal jobs' akin to 'shamatuers' from the soviet union. Yes agreed. But a lot of those players also were regular day workers who simply didnt have the commitment to cricket like you see in modern day players. Up until mid 1940s, cricket had quiete a few players with nobility or rich connections. 'Passtime' players in essence who were worth jack diddly squat as cricketers.
In anycase, like i said, i didnt say ALL of them were amatuers who were pandering around...but many in the field were. And that leads to a huge difference in quality of players and field competitiveness.
Its akin to having a sunday league with the aussie test XI sprikled around the teams....well they will all dominate and get mindboggling averages simply because out of every 4 bowler they face, 1 or 2 are the quality of high school kids and outta every 5 batsmen they dismiss, 1 or 2 were as good as 3rd division players.
It leads to lopsided figures which are common in the amatuer era of a sport. Babe Ruth, Bill Tillden, JM Fangio, Bradman, etc. all are examples of this. This doesnt mean that some of them wont be greats if they played in the modern day game but due to the field being a lot closely bunched together and the average quality level of the players being far greater, their 'easy pickings' will dry up considerably and their averages take a nosedive.
i certainly dont see Bradman average more than 65-70 in modern day cricket, Babe ruth hitting 40 consecutive home runs, Maurice Richards scoring a goal or more in 50 consecutive games and Tillden winning 6-1 6-0 6-1 in the quarterfinals regularly.

That is the effect competitiveness and professionalism has on a field and like i said, Bradman qualifies because he did oh so much more. And the reason i think he is the best batsman ever is not because of his 99 average but because i think if bradman played in the post 50s era, he would be averaging 65-70 range, which is still comfortably better than anyone out there.
But a 55 average in the amatuer era with the field quality spread paper thin versus a 50, hell a 45 average in the professional era ? no way.
Simply...no way can i see them average 50+ with the same game and commitment level.
And the only way you can compare is to take the game and mentality of player X and put him in era Y....cant say 'well if he was born today he would've blahblahblah' because that is simply too theoretical and silly.

Once again, I am not dismissing Tendulkar as anything other than an all-time great, nor am I claiming that he has never played a vital innings for his country. He does not however consistently thrive when his team needs him the most, and his relatively low number of innings in pressure situations shows this. The Pakistan innings in 1999 for example was fantastic, but so many times when India are in trouble at 2/20 facing an opposition score of 400 or a first innings deficit he gets out for a single figure score, or even worse 30 odd. When he comes in at 2/150, you may well see him hit a century. This is the reason that I rate Lara as the best batsman of the 90s and why I put the likes of Richards, Chappell, Lara etc ahead of him in consideration for a World XI position. I think Tendulkar is a fantastic batsman and one of the best I have ever seen, I just do not think he warrants a place in the world XI.
this conclusion, despite factual evidence that he has infact thrived BETTER than Waugh and Lara facing overall BETTER quality of bowling and as far as Waugh goes, consistently better in trying circumstances ( 2nd match innings, chasing a target, scoring runs when the batting collapses, etc etc).
The proof is in the pudding, not the media hype/hoopla. And factually, tendulkar through his career has played under as much pressure as anybody and succeeded better than almost everybody- certainly better than Waugh and arguably better than Lara - up until late 90s, both WI and IND batting were comparable but Lara had the luxury of an excellent bowling unit turning his performance into matchwinning ones.
I think Tendulkar warrants a place in the wold XI ahead of ANY OTHER specialist middle order batsman barring Bradman. Period.
 

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