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Great ODI batsmen

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
Deja moo said:
A commoner misconception. It was Kris Srikkanth who pioneered pinch hitting. Agreed he was not a bowler promoted to open, but he was the first to defy the conventional notion of an opener needing to block-block-block .Thge only reason Srikkanth remained in the team for so long was his strike rate. His average was no great shakes.
The one who started playing in a swashbuckling style as an opener much before it became common practice around the world was Late Raman Lamba of Delhi/India. He did it in a beautiful manner with drives for six on the off side and was made fun of by the establishment in India(beibg from Delhi in a Bombay dominated establishment didnt help) for his unconventional methods (we were just coming out of the Gavaskar era) inspite of his relative success. I think he would have ben considered world class today but at that time he was considered a freak who was just plain lucky he kept getting away with it.

Something like what people said for Sehwag in tests initially.
 

Slats4ever

International Vice-Captain
hehehe i just laugh when people on't like bevan and rate him as the be OD batsman ever and just put them down the column of "people who claim to know something abou cricket but don't"
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
LATE RAMAN LAMBA : A Tribute

Some remarkable innings by Raman Lamba (remarkable in the contextof the times - late eighties when scoring rates were not what they are today)

1. 64(53 balls) on debut against Border's Australia..
Batting at #3 following an 86 runs partnership between Gavaskar and Srikkanth, he probably didnt get to play much(if any) in the first 15 overs. Still he and Srikkanth (run a ball century) helped India chase 251 and get it in the 42nd over !! It was some bating.

2. 74(68 balls) against Border's Aussies.
At #3 and with both openers gone by 26, Lamba played a memorable innings and India managed 242 to win in the 44th over . Its important to remember that 250 was a very big score in the eighties. This got him his first MOM award.

3. 102(120 balls) against Border's Aussies.
Finally getting to open for India with gavaskar dropped(?), Lamba helped India reach 260. India still lost as Australia chased successfully but Lamba was still MOM and also won the man of the series award in his first ever series. It was a terrific batting display but what I remember even more vivdly is the ridicule heaped on him by my Bombay cricketing friends for his lofted drives, many of which went into the last rows over cover point. Today when Jayasuriya does it, we marvel at it and so many youngster's around the world are trying to emulate such batting.

4. 57not out(56 balls) against Sri Lanka
Chasing 209 from possible 44 overs, India were in trouble with a reinstated gavaskar and Srikkanth making heavy weather at the start, Lamba, demoted to number five, after a poor tournament at Sharjah, came in at 97 for 3 and took India to victory with 15 balls to spare.

He also managed a couple of cameos at a run a ball.

At around this stage, Lamba, stung by heavy criticism of his batting style and desperate to get in as an opener in both forms of the game, made a deliberate attempt to change his approach to batting.

This changed his cricket completely. The strike rate dropped from the high eighties to under 60. Further, though he got three more fifties, his average took a beating too, dropping from a very creditsble 36 to 22. The sixes vanished and we turned a remarkable stroke player to a pedestrian ! A lesson for those who talk on and off about Sehwag moderating his game.

BTW, Lamba was also an outstanding fielder and a useful change bowler.

A very spirited youngster, I remember him as a brash (at times rude) youngster from a very talented bunch from the same club in Delhi (Sonnet) that kept churning out brilliant youngsters like Lamba, Prabhakar, Bhaskar Pillay and many others. With some exceptions, Pillay one of them, all these youngsters were in the Ganguly mode as far as aggression on and off the field goes !!

Once he was bowling in a local tournament (semi finals I think) and myself and another batsman from our club were taking them to the cleaners. there was a taxy stand at the edge of the cricket ground and all the taxi drivers used to watch the matches with great enthusiasm. At some stage the drivers decided to very vociferously start rooting for us. Lamba, after I had puled him over the short mid wicket boundary for a six to a great shouting applause from the drivers, ran to the fence alongwith Prabhakar ( I think) to have fisticuffs !! An ugly situation (in which surely Lamba and co would have come out worse) was prevented by locals who were gathered around the ground. This never made him one of my favourite youngsters but he was Delhi's original Sehwag. Even today, when Delhi cricketers sit around there is talk of how he would have been appreciated today !

RIP

Wisden overview
Raman Lamba was a flat-track bully, a journeyman who was a lion in his own den. He came into prominence in the 1986-87 one-day series against Australia, when a hundred and two fifties in six matches won him the Man of the Series award. Short on technique but long on bravado, Lamba was blessed with a superb eye and quickfire reflexes. He liked to give bowlers the charge, and had a flair for improvisation that made for great entertainment. His one-day form was patchy after that dream debut, and he looked pedestrian in his four Tests. He remained a prolific scorer in first-class cricket, with two triple-centuries and a Ranji Trophy average of 53. He had expressed a desire to play on for Delhi until the age of 45, but he was only 38 when he died after being hit on the head while fielding at forward short leg during a club match in Bangladesh.
Amit Varma
 

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PAKMAN

State 12th Man
1 wiv richards
2 Sachin tendulker
3 Saeed anwar
4 Bevan
5 jayasurya
6 mark greatbatch
7 miandad
8 dravid
9 ijaz ahmed (on his day against india) :p
10 yuvraj on his day
11 martin crow
12 inzi (shudv bin on the top)
 

Western Warrior

School Boy/Girl Captain
Arrow said:
How on earth can you have the likes of jayasuriya and especially ganguly ahead of lara.Ganguly is great against the likes of bangladesh UAE but the true mark of a batsman is how he measures up against the best team in the world and hes always struggled against australia.
Sheer runs Arrow. Also, try not to look at the statistics in isolation; instead have a look at the player as a whole. All five players I've listed are the top 5 run scorers in ODI cricket. However, all bar one come from nations which have a great depth in talent and are often spoiled for choice.

Jayasuriya on the other comes from the youngest test / ODI nation in that group. Sri Lanka, apart from Jayasuriya, Vass, da Silva and Muralitheran have often been lacking in talent, depth and potential.

As a result a lot has been expected from him, as a player, as a captain and even, at times, as a bowler. As a result his achievements should never be under-valued.

1 - Sachin Tendulkar 13415 runs @ 45.02
2 - Inzamam Ul Haq 10192 runs @ 39.20
3 - Sanath Jayasuriya 9853 runs @ 31.89
4 - Surav Ganguly 9789 runs @ 42.01
5 - Brian Lara 8921 runs @ 42.28
 

twctopcat

International Regular
You've got to put Viv in any ODI team though even though he may not have scored the most runs. Had he played the same amount of games as tendulkar he would have as many runs, if not more. He was the fastest to each denomination of 1000 runs in terms of innings played ever and at an average of 47 and sr of 90 you don't need to say a lot else.
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
Western Warrior said:
1 - Sachin Tendulkar 13415 runs @ 45.02
2 - Inzamam Ul Haq 10192 runs @ 39.20
3 - Sanath Jayasuriya 9853 runs @ 31.89
4 - Surav Ganguly 9789 runs @ 42.01
5 - Brian Lara 8921 runs @ 42.28
A list of one day greats that leaves out Viv Richards will never be looked at seriously.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
SJS said:
A list of one day greats that leaves out Viv Richards will never be looked at seriously.
a list of ODI greats that has jayasuriya and haq ahead of bevan and richards will never be looked at seriously.
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
tooextracool said:
a list of ODI greats that has jayasuriya and haq ahead of bevan and richards will never be looked at seriously.
A list that has Haq in a short list of five(of the greatest ever ODI players) is of doubtful pedigree.
 

Western Warrior

School Boy/Girl Captain
SJS said:
A list of one day greats that leaves out Viv Richards will never be looked at seriously.
Agreed.....in theory. One of the problems one faces when preparing any 'best of' list is maintaing brevity. If I had to choose 5 players I would stick with the list above. If I had to choose 10 players the likes of Viv, Bevan, Dean Jones would all be included. If I had to choose 20 players then off course the list would be longer still.

It is a selectors dilemma so to speak. So many great players but so few positions.
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
Western Warrior said:
Agreed.....in theory. One of the problems one faces when preparing any 'best of' list is maintaing brevity. If I had to choose 5 players I would stick with the list above. If I had to choose 10 players the likes of Viv, Bevan, Dean Jones would all be included. If I had to choose 20 players then off course the list would be longer still.

It is a selectors dilemma so to speak. So many great players but so few positions.
Just to satisfy my curiosity. What do you think Viv should have done more to qualify for your list of five ??
 

Western Warrior

School Boy/Girl Captain
SJS said:
Just to satisfy my curiosity. What do you think Viv should have done more to qualify for your list of five ??
Let me list 6 players rather than 5 :D

I think Viv is a supreme talent, his record in both tests and ODI's was magnificant however, like I said before, I had five choices and against those five choices I placed five names.

If you ask me again in six months my list will probably be completely different. That is one of the 'problems' of a thread like this, they are purely subjective.
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
Western Warrior said:
Let me list 6 players rather than 5 :D

I think Viv is a supreme talent, his record in both tests and ODI's was magnificant however, like I said before, I had five choices and against those five choices I placed five names.

If you ask me again in six months my list will probably be completely different. That is one of the 'problems' of a thread like this, they are purely subjective.
I tried every possible way to see your 'subjective criteria' and have come to the conclusion that only , and absolutely only, if you consider total career runs scored in ODI's by a batsman, can Richards be kept below the five batsmen you chose !!

Of course, everyone knows that the total carer runs are a function of the number of matches one plays. By similar logic Bradman currently rests at number 25 in the all time list of test batsmen (with worthies like Atherton, Boon and Alec Stewrt , amongst others above him) and more , including the great Jayasuriya, ready to push him further lower shortly.

Richards by this criteria is not only out of the top five but the top 20 also , lying as he does at a poorly 22 with 'great' ODI players like Atapattu and Steve Waugh above him among others !!

OKAY. Let me try to provide my subjective criteria :D
 

Western Warrior

School Boy/Girl Captain
SJS said:
I tried every possible way to see your 'subjective criteria' and have come to the conclusion that only , and absolutely only, if you consider total career runs scored in ODI's by a batsman, can Richards be kept below the five batsmen you chose !! :D
Bingo!

I found it to be the only real critera I could use. 'Subjectively' my top five would have been

1) - Tendulkar
2) - Dean Jones
3) - Bevan
4) - Lara
5) - Ganguly

...again no Richards....sorry!

However, a top ten would be

1) - Sachin Tendulkar
2) - Dean Jones
3) - Michael Bevan
4) - Brian Lara
5) - Surav Ganguly
6) - Viv Richards
7) - Saeed Anwar
8) - Aravinda da Silva
9) - Ricky Ponting
10) - Jacques Kallis (don't laugh, 203 games 7268 @ 46.00)

However greatness must be recognised:



2 days to go...

That one stroke said all. As he went inside the line of a Mike Hendrick delivery and flicked it over square-leg for a six in the 1979 final, Viv Richards was making a statement: he could do what he wanted, the bowler did not matter and the situation was immaterial.

That Hendrick delivery was the last ball of the innings. And the incomparable Richards (138 not out, 157b, 11x4, 3x6) had just helped the West Indies recover from the depths of 99 for four to an imposing 286 for nine, playing the role of a sheet anchor with admirable poise and confidence while nursing Collis King (86), who showed that he too could be destructive when in the mood.

The epithet `King' has always been applied to Richards, and not for nothing has he been chosen one of the five `greatest cricketers of the 20th century.'

Richards was possibly the only batsman who intimidated bowlers just by walking out to the crease. Generally, it is the quick bowlers who intimidate batsmen. But ask the bowlers of his time the world over — the Englishmen especially — and they'll confess Richards always played on their minds.

Richards made an impact on the inaugural World Cup of 1975 with his panther-like fielding in the final against Australia. He turned the contest in favour of the Caribbeans with his well-directed missiles to run out opener Alan Turner and the Chappell brothers, Ian and Greg. This, after he had come of age as an international batsman on the '74-75 tour of India, which made him a natural choice for the '75 edition.

By the '79 World Cup, Richards had built a reputation of being the most attacking batsman in the game. Playing alongside the might of Gordon Greenidge, Des Haynes, Clive Lloyd and Alvin Kallicharan helped, as it saw Richards bat with the freedom few enjoyed.

It was Richards' exit that opened the floodgates for the Indians in the 1983 final. Chasing 184 for victory, Richards, walking in at No. 3, went about his business in characteristic style, so much so that his 33 contained seven boundaries, before Kapil brought off an astounding catch.

Though the defeat disturbed Richards, his biggest disappointment was that the side he led in the 1987 edition, staged in the sub-continent, failed to avenge the '83 loss. But then, it was a rather inexperienced team that he was handling. Michael Holding had announced his retirement earlier while Greenidge and Malcolm Marshall didn't make the trip. But Richards' magnificent 181 against Sri Lanka in that tournament is etched in memory.

Only two other batsmen have made centuries in a World Cup final: Clive Lloyd in '75 and Sri Lankan Aravinda de Silva in the 1996 edition. Lloyd and de Silva were backfoot players; Richards, however, was basically a frontfoot player. And the comparisons end there. Richards was Richards. The King. — This article was written before Pontings magnificant effort during the 03 World Cup Final.
 
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SJS

Hall of Fame Member
SJS said:
OKAY. Let me try to provide my subjective criteria :D
Average or runs per completed innings :
Its a common criteria used in cricket and though it does not do justice to one day cricket it is a good indicator of a batsman's consistency.

This is how your five rank in this with the best being first.
- Tendulkar(45.0),
- Lara(42.3),
- Ganguly(42.1),
- Inzemaam(39.2) and
- Jayasuriya(31.9)
bringing up the rear and the only two below forty..


Richards stands aloof and above this lot at 47.0 !! A higher average than any one with over 3000 runs in ODI's !!

But then one day cricket is not just about scoring runs, it is about scoring runs quickly. So lets try another criteria

Scoring Rate (Runs /100 balls faced) :

Your short list :
- Jayasuriya(88.6),
- Tendulkar(86.2),
- Lara(79.3),
- Ganguly(74.5) and
- Inzemaam(73.1).
Inzemaam again carries the wooden spoon.


Sir Vivian lords it comfortably over your short list with 90.1 !! Higher than everyone except Gilchrist amongst those who have scored 5000 runs or more. And Gilchrist is still to go through his career.

No, no, no, you say this is not fair We must not see averages or scoring rates, we should go for big innings like hundreds !!

Again career 100’s like career runs are directly linked to number innings one plays andopportunities for 100’s in a limited over match are clearly going to be more if you are an opener. Si I devised a more ‘subjective’ criteria. Instead of just 100’s I took all scores above 50 and instead of carreer total I took a percentage like figure. Here it is.

50+ scores per 100 innings:

Your pick :
- Tendulkar (32.1),
- Ganguly (31.7) and
- Lara (30.8) bunched at the top and Ms
- Inzemam (27.0) and
- Jayasuriya (23.2)
again raise eyebrows on their selection in this ‘elite’ list.


Sir Vivian stands alone once again with a near 40 (39.5) fifty plus innings per 100 played !!

I was still not satisfied. Surely their must be some logic in your ‘subjectivity’. The it hit me. Of course, it has to be match winning or match influencing performances not just averages or big scores that mattered. So I decided to look for the Man of Match awards. Surely the cricketer who wins a higher proportion of MOM awards must be ranked at the very top. So this is what I found.

MOM awards per 100 matches played :

Your short list :
- Tendulkar(with 14.7 awards per 100 matches ) again tops followed by
- Lara(11.9),
- Ganguly(11.8) and
- Jayasuriya(11.6). And guess what
- Inzemam (6.9)
stuggling to keep up the rear once again !!


Sir Vivian? Well no prizes for guessing. He stands well clear of the field once again at 16.6 MOM awards per match played.

I can think up some more subjective criteria like teams they played against and the overall scoring rates of the times etc but I am afraid they would still point in the same direction making the case as much shut and closed as it appears at this stage :p
 
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SJS

Hall of Fame Member
Western Warrior said:
Bingo!

I found it to be the only real critera I could use. 'Subjectively' my top five would have been

1) - Tendulkar
2) - Dean Jones
3) - Bevan
4) - Lara
5) - Ganguly

...again no Richards....sorry!

However, a top ten would be

1) - Sachin Tendulkar
2) - Dean Jones
3) - Michael Bevan
4) - Brian Lara
5) - Surav Ganguly
6) - Viv Richards
7) - Saeed Anwar
8) - Aravinda da Silva
9) - Ricky Ponting
10) - Jacques Kallis (don't laugh, 203 games 7268 @ 46.00)
Well, well well.

I see Ms Jayasuriya and Inzemaam have taken to their heels. Actually with them in the short list, I was secretly happy that Sir Vivian was not insulted to be put in such 'exalted' company :p

Strange that their rankings should drop so dramatically (from top five to nowhere in top ten) in a matter of hours :huh:

As far as the case for Sir Vivian is concerned, he needs no certificate from anyone.

By the way, did you ever see him playing ?
 

Western Warrior

School Boy/Girl Captain
masterblaster said:
Some comprehensive research there SJS.
I agree. One of the problems I have with these lists is that the line between best and favourite often becomes blurred, especially when I am concerned.

Just have a look at Richie Benauds XI which was recently released. He claims they are the best of their generation however I disgree with some of his choices. I think they are his favourites and not necessarily the best

However I have to admit SJS that is some indepth research and very well done indeed. Next time I will not take my top five off www.howstat.com and instead go with my own choices in order to prevent offence. :D

Finally, I have seen Viv Richards play and he was amazing to watch. Especially his record against all comers which (apart from Zimbabwe and Pakistan strangely enough) was over 50.00.
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
Western Warrior said:
However I have to admit SJS that is some indepth research and very well done indeed. Next time I will not take my top five off www.howstat.com and instead go with my own choices in order to prevent offence. :D

.
No dear. I do not take offence if some one doesnt think highly of any cricketer, howsoever great. I am amused at times becaus there are some comparisons which are totally indefensible.

Its like what someone said the other day about Bradman having got the benefit of umpires being scared of giving him out, playing against the same bowlers all his career, not having many other cricket palying countries etc.

So I use statistics their only because I feel here are people who probably wont understand anything else anyway :D
 

Dasa

International Vice-Captain
Ahh SJS, I agree with you on Richards, however...
SJS said:
Sir Vivian lords it comfortably over your short list with 90.1 !! Higher than everyone except Gilchrist amongst those who have scored 500 runs or more.
Quite a few players have S/Rs over 90.1 among players scoring 500 runs or more:
Shahid Afridi - 103.33
Smith, I D S - 99.43
Powell, R L - 98.20
Kapil Dev - 95.07
Sehwag, V - 94.59
Gilchrist, A C - 94.12
Flintoff, A - 92.67
Symonds, A - 90.86
Richards, I V A - 90.09

Of course none of these players are anywhere near Richards... yet!
Perhaps you meant 5000 runs?
 

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