Gilchrist v Dhoni

[Richard]

In ODIs you need 6 bowlers strong bowler though.

Not really - you need five proper bowlers and ideally (though not essentially) one other who will from time to time bowl well even though more often they'll probably be spanked.

Only if the keeper is opening you maximise the chances of having doing that.

No you don't. As long as the wicketkeeper bats well - regardless of where - you can play five proper bowlers, provided at the very least one of them is a decent-to-good batsman (Andrew Flintoff for instance).

For instance, the balance of this top-six:
Anwar
Ganguly
Ponting
Tendulkar
Bevan
Dhoni
is exactly the same as the balance of this:
Anwar
Gilchrist
Ponting
Tendulkar
Bevan
Symonds

The former side is probably better because Dhoni to date > Gilchrist as a ODI batsman and Ganguly > Symonds as well. But the balance is the same as long as your six batsmen are in the positions which give them the best chance of getting the best out of them.

 

[aussie]

Not really - you need five proper bowlers and ideally (though not essentially) one other who will from time to time bowl well even though more often they'll probably be spanked.

But how many teams have had 5 very good or world-class bowlers at one time though?. Off my head i can only think of:


AUS 2001-2005 WC: Lee, McGrath, Gillespie, Warne/Hogg, Watson/Harvey

SA 99 WC: Donald, Pollock, Elworthy/Boje, Klusener, Kallis

PAK 99 WC: Wasim, Akthar, Razzaq, Mahmood, Saqlain

NZ 99 WC: Allot, Cairns, Nash, Harris, Larsen (although u could argue it probably only suited the then English conditions)

PAK 2005/06: Akhtar, Asif, Rana, Razzaq, Afridi/Malik

SA currently: Steyn, Parnell, Kallis, Morkel, Botha, VDM

AUS currently: Lee, Johnson, Siddle/Bracken, Hauritz, Watson/Hopes

Otherwise most teams look to generally look to get that strong 6th bowler option, although not with much luck.

No you don't. As long as the wicketkeeper bats well - regardless of where - you can play five proper bowlers, provided at the very least one of them is a decent-to-good batsman (Andrew Flintoff for instance).

For instance, the balance of this top-six:
Anwar
Ganguly
Ponting
Tendulkar
Bevan
Dhoni
is exactly the same as the balance of this:
Anwar
Gilchrist
Ponting
Tendulkar
Bevan
Symonds

The former side is probably better because Dhoni to date > Gilchrist as a ODI batsman and Ganguly > Symonds as well. But the balance is the same as long as your six batsmen are in the positions which give them the best chance of getting the best out of them.

In my AT ODI XI I personally wont pick 6 batsmen (including the keeper bat), but rather 5 bats including the keeper bat, since i would like to include a few all-rounders.

Tendulkar
Gilchrist
Richards
Ponting
Bevan
Imran
Kapil
Klusener
Wasim
Garner
Murali

So i guess for anybody depending on how you structure your team. That would dictate on which one of Gilly or Dhoni they pick to keep.

 

[Richard]

Well I wouldn't pick any form of all-time ODI team because I don't see the point in comparing the game played in the 1970s and 1980s to the one played in the 1990s and 2000s so I'll gladly not comment on that, but I hope you now realise that wicketkeepers opening does not aid the balance of the side - having the best six batsmen you can get does.

And indeed no, most ODI sides have not historically tended to have five ODI-class bowlers at the same time, same way they've not tended to have six ODI-class batsmen (including a ODI-class wicketkeeper) at the same time. In fact I'd imagine you could count on two hands the number of sides that have done that for more than a game or so at a time, and no-one ever has for more than a tournament or two at a time. But this isn't about which teams have done that, it's about cherry-picking the best not to play a match but to form a composite XI.

BTW there was never any time when any of Watson, Harvey, Boje, Azhar Mahmood, Abdur Razzaq, Rana, Shoaib Malik, Albie Morkel, Siddle and Hopes have been ODI-class bowlers. So thus most of the aforementioned are ruled-out.

 

[GGG]

Gilchrist without a doubt, the main job of a wicket keeper is the keep wickets and Dhoni (what I have seen of him) is average to say the least.

 

[Richard]

I guess you haven't seen much of him of late then. Dhoni is easily, easily good enough to keep wicket in ODIs these days. He's not one of the best ever, but nor was Gilchrist.

 

[aussie]

Well I wouldn't pick any form of all-time ODI team because I don't see the point in comparing the game played in the 1970s and 1980s to the one played in the 1990s and 2000s so I'll gladly not comment on that,.

I generally agree with this. But i'd say Imran, Kapil, Richards, Garner along with Dean Jones, Hadlee, Haynes, Gooch. Where few of the 70s & 80s ODI players who in that era of ODI cricket clearly where of the 90s & 2000s level - thus they really should be considered when picking a AT ODI XI.

but I hope you now realise that wicketkeepers opening does not aid the balance of the side - having the best six batsmen you can get does.

Yea. But i was sort of basing that reasoning on my opinion of the what the Best AT ODI XI should look like.

BTW there was never any time when any of Watson, Harvey, Boje, Azhar Mahmood, Abdur Razzaq, Rana, Shoaib Malik, Albie Morkel, Siddle and Hopes have been ODI-class bowlers. So thus most of the aforementioned are ruled-out.

I did say very good to world class.

Harvey & Watson between 01-05 certainly did make the composition of the AUS ODI attack in the period much very good.

Mahmood & Razzaq in that 99 WC PAK team where in the best bowling forms of their lives probably thus certainly making the WC attack one of the best ever.

Rana in the period mentioned was very good. That 05/06 PAK attack was vey good. If it wasn't for injuries & the Oval 06 scandal if that attack had gone to the 07 WC. It would have been the best attack on paper in the 07 WC.

A Morkel, Hopes & Siddle (although he certainly has shown all the early skills to have very solid ODI career) may not be great ODI bowlers. But overall they make the composition of the current SA & AUS ODI attacks very good & extremely well balanced.

 

[Isura]

I often wonder whether people realise just how good a ODI opener Sanath Jayasuriya truly has been.

Most seem not to realise that he's opened about 300 times and averages ~36 at a SR of ~90. The fact that he was a mediocre middle-order batsman for 4-5 years before this means the a-career-average-is-everything brigade who can't operate StatsGuru get thrown off-course.

Agree.

Gilchrist without a doubt, the main job of a wicket keeper is the keep wickets and Dhoni (what I have seen of him) is average to say the least.

Why do you think keeping is so important? How much more valuable is a great keeper compared to an average one in runs saved and wickets taken? I've always believed that keeper fielding is relatively unimportant in one day cricket. Keeping skills are a lot more valuable in tests because in tests,

-keepers take a higher % of catches
-bowlers bowl more aggressive and unpredictable line/lengths (more bouncers, balls down leg etc)
- degraded and unpredictable pitch conditons

I think a Ponting, Gibbs type of ground fielder adds more value in ODIs (over replacement level player) than a great glove man. They certainly save more runs than keeper, effect runouts, take catches.

 

[bagapath]

He's not one of the best ever, but nor was Gilchrist.

why do u say that?

 

[NUFAN]

I'm frankly astonished anyone would pick Gilchrist ahead of Mark Waugh TBH given the two of them opened together for a number of years and Jnr. Waugh was always clearly the best of the two.

**** it, you are right, You have somehow made me change my mind.
Mark Waugh and Sachin Tendulkar are my openers..

Gilchrist overlooked.

 

[Migara]

In ODIs you need 6 bowlers strong bowler though. Only if the keeper is opening you maximise the chances of having doing that. Not all teams in ODI hisotry have had that luxury, but surely the Greatest ever AT ODI XI should have at.

How about your 2nd spinner / 5th bowler opening the batting for you?

 

[Migara]

But how many teams have had 5 very good or world-class bowlers at one time though?. Off my head i can only think of:

Vaas, Malinga, Thushara, Murali, Mendis, Jayasuriya. There are at least 4 - 5 big names (depending the way you judge Malinga)

And few years back NZ had: Bond, Tuffey, Cairns, Vettori and fwe medium pacers.

 

[thierry henry]

ur sig should probably tell u who is condescending and who isn't... And the number of times I have seen you thrash some of the greats' achievements and other greats' opinions made me post this way. I may not have actively participated in the debates with you before but I have read enough to know that you have been exactly what you called me towards many of the game's greatest ever AND their opinions....

Nah, yo mama.

 

[age_master]

Gilchrist. Easily.

 

[honestbharani]

Nah, yo mama.

excellent counter. So what else is new in 3rd grade these days?

 

[thierry henry]

excellent counter. So what else is new in 3rd grade these days?

You raise a fascinating point, but on the other hand, you like boys LOL

 

[Flem274*]

He may like boys, but you kissed one.

 

[James]

Cut out the personal insults guys. Discuss the topic properly, or don't discuss it at all.

 

[Flem274*]

but sir, he started it!

 

[Ikki]

Vaas, Malinga, Thushara, Murali, Mendis, Jayasuriya. There are at least 4 - 5 big names (depending the way you judge Malinga)

And few years back NZ had: Bond, Tuffey, Cairns, Vettori and fwe medium pacers.

Jayasuriya is a world-class bowler now?

 

[honestbharani]

You raise a fascinating point, but on the other hand, you like boys LOL

haha.. wud love to continue the slanderfest but I think we have insulted the board and the board members enough as it is... So unless you got something reasonable to argue about it, I am not replying anymore to you.



EDIT: Posted before I saw James' post. Apologies, James and to other CWers. Didn't mean to get so angry but s a touchy issue for me, given how some here tend to slander the past greats and their records and their opinions. Apologies again.