Gilchrist v Dhoni

[vcs]

I can accept the argument that Lara's knock was superior because he had to spend a lot of time batting with the tail, something that he was indeed better at compared to Tendulkar. "Clutchness" arguments are glib, however.

 

[Burgey]

Stokes was not miles away from not winning that game.

He was out tbf.

There is some truth re the clutch thing you raise, but some blokes just do not step up when it matters most, while others do. It happens in all sports.

Stokes' knock really only got tense when it was down to less than 40-50 odd to get. Before that he was, frankly, slogging his arse off and got away with it. Not unlike Botham at the same ground in 81. The genius of Stokes' innings was to continue to bat precisely the same way once it got tight

 

[Daemon]

Luck was no doubt the biggest factor in Stokes playing that knock. No way the judge should have let him off that easy.

 

[trundler]

The Lyon LBW was as plumb as can be. It was borderline farcical in fact.

 

[_00_deathscar]

He was out tbf.

There is some truth re the clutch thing you raise, but some blokes just do not step up when it matters most, while others do. It happens in all sports.

Stokes' knock really only got tense when it was down to less than 40-50 odd to get. Before that he was, frankly, slogging his arse off and got away with it. Not unlike Botham at the same ground in 81. The genius of Stokes' innings was to continue to bat precisely the same way once it got tight

Yes it does but the problem is that cricket has such limited opportunities for it if for ODIs we are only basing it on World Cup Finals. That’s 2 games out of 400+ for Sachin.

In football, basketball etc there are far more games to judge relative clutchness.

 

[Burgey]

Nah, there's blokes in other sports who never play in finals/ play offs. Plenty of them are awesome players, but when you get to finals it's about who steps up.

Look at Parramatta, NSW and Australian great Mick Cronin. 250 odd games. Missed conversions in the 1977 GF vs Saints in a 9-9 draw when trying to win the club's first premiership. They then got smashed in the replay.

He was the best goal kicker of his generation, and one of the greatest players too. And even though Parra won in 81, 82 and 83 with him in the side, they were comfortable wins so he always had the rep (rightly so) of a bloke who'd not stepped up under pressure when kicking in the GF when it mattered most. Same in 84 when we lost 6-4 to the flea infest mange. Sure he scored our try, but missed two relatively easy goal kicks, one of which draws it, both of which win it. The Crow was an ATG, but known for choking in GFs when he had a kick to win the game. And so he should have been.

It was only in 86 when he kicked us to a GF win that the choker tag was rightly put to bed. The first tryless GF and he kicked 2 from 2 to win it for us. Redemption.

It's similar to Chokedulkar in ODIs. Crow kicked some amazing goals and truly was a ridiculously great player, but he gassed up in GFs til 86, and was rightly known for it. There's no way around it for Tendy - when the acid was on on the biggest stage, he was about as hard as a lemonade sandwich. It has to count against him, otherwise why even have ****ing finals?

 

[mr_mister]

Had no idea one bloke even played in so many GFs. Must be a record

 

[Burgey]

Sticks Provan played 10 in a row for Saints up to 1965. Won all of them. The last four as captain-coach.

What a man he was. Am no Saints supporter, but hte big portrait of him at the top of the stairs at Saints Leagues Club sens shivers down your spine. And of course, there's that pic which ended up the NRL trophy...

 

[mr_mister]

Geez that must have been pre salary cap days.

Seemed more like the EPL back then with such a gulf in class between some teams to others

 

[Burgey]

Saints were brilliant. Attracted the best players from everywhere because they originally had Ken Kearney as captain-coach, who was tough as teak and put in place a ridiculous training regime, so they started winning and got the best players across.

But the really, really smart thing they did was, at the end of every season when they were winning GFs, while other sides had their end of season trips up the coast, Saints would do a 2-3 week tour around the bush and play exhibitions against local sides. So, every gun kid from the bush wanted to play for Saints, and it doubled as a scouting tour for them. Brilliant, and decades ahead of its time. It's why they're still one of the most widely supported clubs across regional NSW.

 

[Daemon]

Cool thanks burgey

 

[mr_mister]

I enjoyed reading it Burge

 

[Burgey]

Cool thanks burgey

It's taken over a decade, but it looks like you've finally woken up to the fact Tendulkar was a choker. Congrats.

 

[NotMcKenzie]

The genius of Stokes' innings was to continue to bat precisely the same way once it got tight

I think part of the genius of Stokes' innings, though I guess it was a bit Dhoni-esque in that regard, is that he crawled through the early portion and only hit out when he was very well set.

As I said:

Stokes certainly showed the right way about it: people may forget that at one point, he had only 7 runs off 80 deliveries (IIRC).

 

[OverratedSanity]

Yeah it was a blockathon early on, must have taken immense self belief to get through it and change gears like that

 

[Burgey]

Yeah it was a blockathon early on, must have taken immense self belief to get through it and change gears like that

He changed gears when he had nothing to lose. It’s weird, but there was zero pressure on him when he started to hit out. It's when it gets tight the pressure comes on

 

[TheJediBrah]

Most special thing about the Stokes innings was the absurd luck. Not even talking about the plumb lbw not given. He literally should have been out caught in the deep half a dozen times off Lyon alone the amount of slogs he completely mis-timed and landed in gaps the arsey ****.

yes mad

 

[_00_deathscar]

It's similar to Chokedulkar in ODIs. Crow kicked some amazing goals and truly was a ridiculously great player, but he gassed up in GFs til 86, and was rightly known for it. There's no way around it for Tendy - when the acid was on on the biggest stage, he was about as hard as a lemonade sandwich. It has to count against him, otherwise why even have ****ing finals?

But there were other 'finals', albeit none anywere anyhwere near as important as the World Cup Final, where he actually did very well.

Again, the issue is the sample size - how many non-Aussie players have played in more than 1 World Cup final? How about more than 2?

What about players like Gilchrist etc who only turned it on the final, but failed in the earlier stages because the team picked up the slack? If Gilchrist had played for a lesser nation, they wouldn't have got to the finals for a player of his calibre to turn it on, and he'd rightly be blamed for choking when it mattered.

It's a very microscopic lens. I'm not saying the accussation is false - statistically, I agree with you. Same as with Kohli (ironically played a crucial but unmemorable knock in the 2011 World Cup Final, but 'choked' in the latest one). But ODI cricket's sample sizes are far too small if we're limiting it to just World Cup finals.

By the way, hasn't Sachin done well in semi finals before in the World Cup?

 

[Daemon]

But there were other 'finals', albeit none anywere anyhwere near as important as the World Cup Final, where he actually did very well.

Again, the issue is the sample size - how many non-Aussie players have played in more than 1 World Cup final? How about more than 2?

What about players like Gilchrist etc who only turned it on the final, but failed in the earlier stages because the team picked up the slack? If Gilchrist had played for a lesser nation, they wouldn't have got to the finals for a player of his calibre to turn it on, and he'd rightly be blamed for choking when it mattered.

It's a very microscopic lens. I'm not saying the accussation is false - statistically, I agree with you. Same as with Kohli (ironically played a crucial but unmemorable knock in the 2011 World Cup Final, but 'choked' in the latest one). But ODI cricket's sample sizes are far too small if we're limiting it to just World Cup finals.

By the way, hasn't Sachin done well in semi finals before in the World Cup?

Deathscar meet burgey

 

[Burgey]

WCs are it in ODIs (and T20s, though tbh they're just a joke all round). No one cares about finals in the Sharjah PepsiMax Trophy in the late 90s or even things like the far superior triangular Australian series of yore ffs.

It's just WCs, and the finals are where it's at. For example, in 2007, Australia didn't break a sweat in any game through the whole tournament, but if they'd gassed up in the final, would anyone have known that was the case? Of course not! If you can't lift and do a job on the biggest stage of all, then all your ODI efforts elsewhere are for nowt. Everyone says ABdV is an ODI ATG. If you asked him whether he would swap all his achievements for a decent knock in a WC final win, he'd swap them in a heartbeat. If you've got similar players with similar records but one of them has played a blinder in the WC final, I'll take that bloke every time.

Others might have different criteria for judging players, and that's cool - wrong, but cool - but I'll always place massive emphasis on how they go in the biggest games of all.