Fringe Aussie fringe Players who would excel in other teams..

[Neil Pickup]

The point is that his career record is misrepresentative of his current performances.

Over the last 2 years (since injury) he's averaging somewhere near the 40 mark.

 

[membersstand]

The stuff being posted in here about Hussey, MacGill, Hodge etc. not being able to walk into any other test team is crap. The people posting this stuff need to remember the fact that Australia has anihalated every team it's played over the last few years, and that the standard of play in Pura Cup/ING is so much higher than anywhere else in the world.
The fact is that Australia A (and most state sides) have beaten almost every touring team of late, so for people to claim that players who repeatedly make runs and take wickets against test-match opposition in such matches couldn't play for the team's they've just beaten is absolutely absurd.

IMHO a player such as Nathan Pilon, who can't gt a guernsey for Victoria, would walk right over Parthiv Patel and into the Indian middle-order. Fringe allrounders such as Watson, Hopes and Thornely could easily be performing the Razzaq/Mahmood role late in the Pakistani order, with a heap more success than the incumbents. And the "fearsome" England bowling attack would still kill for another quick of the quality of Lee, Lewis, Wright, Nicholson, Tait, Bracken, Rofe, Bichel or Noffke. Woah, seems like quite a good list of names. And of course it's been mentioned enough that MacGill would walk in to any team with the exception of India and possibly Sri Lanka.

 

[Neil Pickup]

I really don't think so. Whilst I'm inclined to agree about the batsmen for the most part, most of the bowlers you mention there have played plenty of County Championship recently and really haven't impressed, Tait's case being the standout. I struggle to believe that Hopes or Thornely could hit the sort of innings that Razzaq made on a regular basis against NZ last year. Pilon averages 19 in FC cricket, and Patel averages 32 in Tests (and since 2003, after the farce in NZ, 38) - yep, I'm sure the BCCI would make that swap.

All borne out by the fact that when Gillespie, McGrath and Warne went down in the Border-Gavaskar trophy in Australia last year, India competed to such an extent with Bracken, Williams and Lee leading the line.

 

[tooextracool]

An average of 32 like Brett lee Average isn't that bad compared to allot of other bowlers in world cricket that have an average of that region. For example C Vaas (29.9),

plays in SL for half his career.

D Vettori (35.1), A Giles (37.2),), S Mushtaq (29.8),

what is the point of including spinners? we all know that spinners tend to have higher averages than pace bowlers. and well done in picking 2 bowlers who cant bowl outside turners and one who has struggled with injury.

Z Khan (36.6), )

because hes test class?

M Ntini (29.9), M Hoggard (32.2),

brett lee is averaging more than 35 in the last few years, which is more indicative of how good(or rather bad) a bowler he is

M Kasprowiz (30.4), A Flintoff (35.7). ),

and of course their bowling averages in the last few years have been as appalling as lees havent they?

The list could go on and on, but the point is that Brett average isn't that bad compared to others. I personally think that he would make most Test sides as a strike bowlers or at least a 3rd seamer.

no they wouldnt, id like to see how many teams would like a strike bowler who averages 37.

 

[tooextracool]

when was the last time he played in a test match? what makes you so sure that he hasnt improved?

because hes been bowling rubbish in ODIs.

 

[Pratters]

The fact is that Australia A (and most state sides) have beaten almost every touring team of late, so for people to claim that players who repeatedly make runs and take wickets against test-match opposition in such matches couldn't play for the team's they've just beaten is absolutely absurd.

Mumbai have beaten so many touring teams including Australia. So does that mean most of its current players deserve to play international cricket?

Australian cricket has depth. No doubt about it. But how over rated Australians put domestic peformances in general came to light with the performances of the likes of Bracken and Brad Williams recently.

Your arguement about a keeper replacing Patel, can hold true for most other nations. Karthik could make so many other international sides as could Mushtaq Ahmed.

Australian cricket has depth in their batting but Eliott struggled when he played at the international level. And Slater was dropped not because another player was great but because Slater was too erratic. So you can never say if some one would show the tenacity at the international level before he does. Ask that too Graeme Hick if you dont believe me.

 

[Richard]

Simon Katich would make any other Top 6 in world cricket, even the Indian one, but most likely as an opening batsmen.

Simon Katich would make no side as an opening-batsman.

 

[Richard]

hehe in that case i think ill throw out the early half of agits career and see what happens and then ill pick on some more indian and english players and see if its still the same.

There are plenty of players whose careers have had two - sometimes even more - distinct parts.
Ajit Agarkar is not one of them (not in Tests, anyways - in ODIs he's become slowly less and less effective).

 

[Richard]

Several of the posts in this thread have made reference to the deterioration in Brett Lee's performance over the years and how that deterioration leads them to the conclusion that he is average and/or unlikely to secure a position in other countries' test teams.

Whilst one cannot dispute the marked decline in his returns, there are extenuating circumstances - most notably the fact that he is now injury-free for the first time in years. As an example of how this has affected him, last summer he hardly bowled a ball, let alone spell, above 140 kph. In the first odi of the summer, he averaged over 150 kph and was timed at 156 kph -all with outswing.

Early in his career, Steve Waugh was impressed enough to label him (a once in a generation bowler." Should he continue to bowl at 150 kph with outswing, he'll walk into any team including Australia.

Not if he can't bowl with the requistite accuracy.
If someone is seriously injured non-stop for 3 years then something's very badly wrong.
Sorry - Lee's bowled above 140, above 150, kph reguarly and still sprayed it all over the place and been wholly ineffective. I can't really see that changing too much.

 

[Richard]

The stuff being posted in here about Hussey, MacGill, Hodge etc. not being able to walk into any other test team is crap. The people posting this stuff need to remember the fact that Australia has anihalated every team it's played over the last few years, and that the standard of play in Pura Cup/ING is so much higher than anywhere else in the world.

No, they need to remember that Australians repeatedly tell us it is - and that we have no proof.

The fact is that Australia A (and most state sides) have beaten almost every touring team of late, so for people to claim that players who repeatedly make runs and take wickets against test-match opposition in such matches couldn't play for the team's they've just beaten is absolutely absurd.

Not given that the teams have been undercooked and looking to gain form ahead of Test or ODI series.

IMHO a player such as Nathan Pilon, who can't gt a guernsey for Victoria, would walk right over Parthiv Patel and into the Indian middle-order. Fringe allrounders such as Watson, Hopes and Thornely could easily be performing the Razzaq/Mahmood role late in the Pakistani order, with a heap more success than the incumbents. And the "fearsome" England bowling attack would still kill for another quick of the quality of Lee, Lewis, Wright, Nicholson, Tait, Bracken, Rofe, Bichel or Noffke. Woah, seems like quite a good list of names. And of course it's been mentioned enough that MacGill would walk in to any team with the exception of India and possibly Sri Lanka.

As for this, it's laughable. Most of the bowlers have been proven wholly average at Test-level; some, of course (Noffke, Tait) have been suggested as not even good enough for Championship cricket.

 

[social]

Not if he can't bowl with the requistite accuracy.
If someone is seriously injured non-stop for 3 years then something's very badly wrong.
Sorry - Lee's bowled above 140, above 150, kph reguarly and still sprayed it all over the place and been wholly ineffective. I can't really see that changing too much.

You obviously have not seen him bowl recently as:

1. you would realise that he has not bowled regularly above 140 ks for 18 months; and

2. because of his leg injuries, he has not been able to stand up properly at the crease and has therefore sprayed the ball short and legside for the majority of that time.

Look, I am not saying that Brett Lee will instantly morph back into his world-beating former life if given the opportunity. But what I do know for a fact is that:

a. when fit, he is consistently the fastest bowler in the world;

b. the New Zealanders, having seen him only in the nets, were absolutely s*******g themselves at the prospects of him playing this summer (I got that from the horse's mouth); and

c. having seen Shoaib bowl this summer, Brett Lee is a FAR better bowler than him day in and day out, and Shoaib's record of late is very good (maybe that's representative of batting standards at present).

In summary, Lee has bowled absolute crap for the last couple of years but the signs this summer are that he is fit and getting back to where he was.

 

[SpaceMonkey]

When a batsmen sees a bowler bowling fast in the nets of course they'd **** themselfs. But in reality Lee hasnt being world class since his Elbow injury a few years back. His test averages tells you all you need to know, no matter how fast he bowls. Good batsmen can play pace (just see how well Vaughan played him in the last one dayer dispite looking out of place vs slower fast bowlers).
He'd still be my first pick for a one dayer though. Best ive ever see at the fast straight yorkers at the end of an innings. But for Tests he's good (would walk into the England side not cos of his average but cos we seem to stick any bowler who bowls over 90mph into the team no matter how good or bad they perform in county cricket) but nowhere near world class.

 

[tooextracool]

his best performance was against england in the vb series 2nd final. i'll still never get over the fact that we went from 216/6 with flintoff and collingwood at the crease to 224 all out chasing 229. i dont like lee much as a bowler but credit where its due, that was an astonishing performance.

 

[marc71178]

c. having seen Shoaib bowl this summer, Brett Lee is a FAR better bowler than him day in and day out, and Shoaib's record of late is very good (maybe that's representative of batting standards at present).

Hmm, maybe pre-injury, but since then 1 5fer in 30 Tests suggests that he's not the same.

 

[Richard]

You obviously have not seen him bowl recently as:

1. you would realise that he has not bowled regularly above 140 ks for 18 months; and

2. because of his leg injuries, he has not been able to stand up properly at the crease and has therefore sprayed the ball short and legside for the majority of that time.

Funny, then, that the obvious change occurred after an elbow injury?
I realise he wasn't above 140kph that often last winter against India, but I can assure you he regularly bowled in the 150ks bracket plenty in previous winters. Yet even at one of the fastest pitches at The WACA, producer of wickets incomparably fast to anywhere in The World, he took the poor figures of 5 for 150 in the match.

 

[C_C]

I would think that the fringe aussie players who would succeed in other teams to be determined by which team is in question.
For example, i can think of quiete a few aussie bowlers who dont play (or play very seldom) in the test/ODI XI that would make the current WI XI without breaking much of a sweat.
Not that many batsmen for example would make it into the Indian Test XI ( the only place where the contention can be made is the opening spot to partner Virender Sehwag since the rest 5 are either alltime greats or worldclass).
Indian ODI XI is another matter( apart from Tendy,Dravid,Pathan,Harbhajan and Ganguly, a case can be made for any position )
On the other hand, Australia probably can field a fourth-string team that will beat the bangladeshis and the zimboks without much hassle.

But these are the players i think who have a crack at ANY team out there(with a few exceptions such as the Indian batting order for eg.):

Mike Hussey
David Hussey
Shane Watson
Matthew Elliott
Andy Bichel
Stuart McGill

As per Tait and Rofe, i wouldnt include them in this category. I am looking at this category as players who are good enough to play for any other nation but have been kept out consistently by superior players.
Rofe and Tait are up and comming bowlers who might become stalwarts one day.....i dont think they properly fit this criteria.

 

[chaminda_00]

Brett Lee might not be preforming as well as he had at the start of his career but i doubt their would be too many 3rd Seamers who would keep him out of any test side apart from Kaspra.

 

[Smudge]

You obviously have not seen him bowl recently as:

1. you would realise that he has not bowled regularly above 140 ks for 18 months; and

2. because of his leg injuries, he has not been able to stand up properly at the crease and has therefore sprayed the ball short and legside for the majority of that time.

Look, I am not saying that Brett Lee will instantly morph back into his world-beating former life if given the opportunity. But what I do know for a fact is that:

a. when fit, he is consistently the fastest bowler in the world;

b. the New Zealanders, having seen him only in the nets, were absolutely s*******g themselves at the prospects of him playing this summer (I got that from the horse's mouth); and

c. having seen Shoaib bowl this summer, Brett Lee is a FAR better bowler than him day in and day out, and Shoaib's record of late is very good (maybe that's representative of batting standards at present).

In summary, Lee has bowled absolute crap for the last couple of years but the signs this summer are that he is fit and getting back to where he was.

Right... so a member of the Black Caps told Random Joe Punter they were scared out of the daks about the prospect of facing Lee - despite probably 80% having faced him in some shape or form in the past?

Give me a break.

 

[social]

Right... so a member of the Black Caps told Random Joe Punter they were scared out of the daks about the prospect of facing Lee - despite probably 80% having faced him in some shape or form in the past?

Give me a break.

No, a member of NZ Cricket's controlling body actually.

He used words to the effect of "the team feels that Lee is the most physically intimidating bowler in world cricket and the team could not believe their luck in not having to face him."

 

[Smudge]

No, a member of NZ Cricket's controlling body actually.

He used words to the effect of "the team feels that Lee is the most physically intimidating bowler in world cricket and the team could not believe their luck in not having to face him."

Why did you sensationalise the quote in your original piece then?

That's a lot different to what you have in this above quote.