Fringe Aussie fringe Players who would excel in other teams..

[Zinzan]

whoops....here is the top half of my argument....


No-one has answered the question of which other cricket side in the world would have consistently overlooked brett lee?



im not sure that an average of 42 is something you would call fantastic in domestic cricket.

Your right, not fantastic, but very good.

Apart from indians who seem to have extremely high batting averages (but high bowling averages also), I would have thought firstclass ave of 42 is good enough for a test batsmen.

You should have a look at English Test batsmen top order averages in firstclass cricekt ie. vaughan, tresocthic, thorpe etc etc, and i'm sure you will see they average late 30s and early 40s in first class cricket. And symonds plays 50/50 county cricket and Aust firstclass cricket, and Aust first class cricket is generally of a higher standard.

 

[tooextracool]

Correct, his bowling is handy at best, but this should detract from his batting ability. I know oneday cricket is not test cricket, but it is worth noting that symonds averages mid 30s in oneday cricket, at a strike rate of around 90 , which almost mirrors Flintoffs oneday record. I personally think he is a similar batsmen toflintoff, and Flintoff supposedly is good enough to play for England (the 2nd best test side ) as a batsmen only.

The only difference is Symonds has a much better firstclass batting record to Flintoff.

if one day cricket is not test cricket then why bring it up? and just because flintoff has done it, it doesnt mean that symonds will. IMO symonds from what ive seen from him in ODI cricket and the bit in test cricket is simply not good enough at doing anything else other than hammering the ball out of the park. not something that helps a lot in test match cricket.

 

[tooextracool]

whoops....here is the top half of my argument....


No-one has answered the question of which other cricket side in the world would have consistently overlooked brett lee?

i believe almost every test side bar maybe india, bangladesh and possibly sri lanka.

Your right, not fantastic, but very good.

its not even very good, its decent.

Apart from indians who seem to have extremely high batting averages (but high bowling averages also), I would have thought firstclass ave of 42 is good enough for a test batsmen.

You should have a look at English Test batsmen top order averages in firstclass cricekt ie. vaughan, tresocthic, thorpe etc etc, and i'm sure you will see they average late 30s and early 40s in first class cricket. And symonds plays 50/50 county cricket and Aust firstclass cricket, and Aust first class cricket is generally of a higher standard.

all of which is irrelevent. symonds is a failure at the test level and is simply not good enough. most of those english players have proven themselves at the test match level, whether or not their domestic figures is good enough is irrelevant. i know that there are several players in english domestic cricket who have much higher averages than those playing test cricket and have been miserable failures in their test career to date.

 

[mavric41]

How you can declare someone is test class because they failed in their only 2 tests is beyond me. Have you heard of someone called Graham Gooch who started with a pair or Martin Crowe who had about 7 runs after his first 3 tests (Thommo terrorised him). There are countless others who have had poor starts and have gone on to great careers. You only had to see Symonds innings in the world cup to see that he has class.

 

[tooextracool]

How you can declare someone is test class because they failed in their only 2 tests is beyond me. Have you heard of someone called Graham Gooch who started with a pair or Martin Crowe who had about 7 runs after his first 3 tests (Thommo terrorised him). There are countless others who have had poor starts and have gone on to great careers. You only had to see Symonds innings in the world cup to see that he has class.

how anyone can declare that someone who failed miserably in his 2 tests would make all other test sides in the world is quite ridiculous. no obviously no one can say for certain that he isnt test class, but IMO from what i saw in those 2 tests where he clearly looked short of being test match standard, i doubt he will ever be test class. and i doubt his performances in ODIs prove anything.

 

[mavric41]

how anyone can declare that someone who failed miserably in his 2 tests would make all other test sides in the world is quite ridiculous. no obviously no one can say for certain that he isnt test class, but IMO from what i saw in those 2 tests where he clearly looked short of being test match standard, i doubt he will ever be test class. and i doubt his performances in ODIs prove anything.

I never said he would make all other test sides. I have seen alot more of Symonds playing than you and if given an extended run, I'm sure he would be a success. His performances in the tests, in totally foreign conditions, were atypical of how he has been playing recently.

 

[tooextracool]

I never said he would make all other test sides..

no you didnt, but someone else did.

I have seen alot more of Symonds playing than you and if given an extended run, I'm sure he would be a success. His performances in the tests, in totally foreign conditions, were atypical of how he has been playing recently.

yes you probably have, but i doubt performances at domestic cricket prove anything to me. if he played rubbish in his 2 tests maybe he just might be rubbish?

 

[age_master]

hehe let the english think their team is great - the ashes arn't too far off where they will no doubt be put in their place...

 

[Jono]

If these players were playing for other test nations, they'd eventually come up against Australia.

I'd love to see Lee and MacGill's records then.

 

[Richard]

Well richard ...In response to the 3 you've mentions...

Firstly Mcgill, His test record is fantastic for a leg-spinner.....
Mcgill
test
O M R W Ave BBI 5 10 SR Econ
Bowling 1454.5 299 4611 160 28.81 7-50 10 2 54.5 3.16

note- a better strike rate than Warne

And his short oneday stint is even better

oneday
Magill
O M R W Ave BBI 4w 5w SR Econ
Bowling 30 4 105 6 17.50 4-19 1 0 30.0 3.50

Because those ODIs were against teams in such fantastic nick, weren't they? Pakistan and India, who lost all but 1 game to Australia that summer.
And yes, MacGill's Test-record is, on face-value, not bad at all - but a better reflection is his recent form, which you can see quite clearly shows a distinctly average bowler.

On Brett lee...
Admittedly Lee's test record could be a lot better (he averages early 30s), however I've got know doubts his record would be a lot better had he consistently been in the side. I ask you the question...What other test side in the world would have consistently left him out over the years? A geniunely fast bowler who can bowl 150kms +

As with MacGill, Lee's Test-record is actually far from "could be a lot better" - it's actually plain poor when you consider that his most recent matches are the relevant ones. You may also notice that in that time he missed 4 games, 2 of them due to injury - so as I've already said you really can't use the "he wasn't given a run" argument.

On Andrew Symonds, Admittedly in the 2 tests he has had, he had no success, although its hard to judge someone on 2 tests. His first class batting record is fantastic ...

FIRST-CLASS
(1994/95 - 2004/05; last updated 09/01/2005)
M I NO Runs HS Ave 100 50 Ct St
Batting & Fielding 178 299 28 11510 254* 42.47 34 47 124 0

and the fact he can bowl both medium pace and spin is a bonus...as well as his incredible fielding

Also remember apart from his county cricket in England, he plays his firstclass cricket in the pura -cup which is almost as competitive as test cricket.

I don't see how you could right Symonds off as not being a successful test cricketer if he was a non-australian and given a decent chance.

To call The Pura Cup "almost as competetive as Test-cricket" (presuming you actually mean "of a comparable standard") is quite laughable - any of the proper Test-sides, including West Indies, would almost certainly wipe the floor in The Pura Cup were they to be given a season or two.
And no, as has already been said, Symonds' First-Class record is not "fantastic", it's simply acceptible and good enough to get into the Queensland and Kent sides. It's not immidiately suggestive of a Test-class player.
As I say, having watched Symonds bat numerous times - albeit mostly in one-day matches - I have serious doubts that he'd make the grade as a Test-cricketer, and if he were to get 3 or 4 more Tests I'd frankly expect him to continue where he left-off in Sri Lanka. Not, of course, that he should have got anywhere near being selected for Australia ITFP.
As for his bowling - well, that's nowhere near good enough to be of consideration in selection for internationals.

 

[Scallywag]

Because those ODIs were against teams in such fantastic nick, weren't they? Pakistan and India, who lost all but 1 game to Australia that summer...

As opposed to all the teams at the world cup that coudent even beat Australia once.

To call The Pura Cup "almost as competetive as Test-cricket" (presuming you actually mean "of a comparable standard") is quite laughable - any of the Test-sides, including West Indies, would almost certainly wipe the floor in The Pura Cup were they to be given a season or two..

Zimbabwe and Bangledesh are test nations that would be lucky to win a game in Pura cup and I dont think the West Indies would maintain the intensity to win the Pura cup, in fact I dont think they would make the final.

Just in case anybody thinks I'm unaware, I allready know I'm Australian and I'm damm proud of that fact.

 

[Richard]

As opposed to all the teams at the world cup that coudent even beat Australia once.

Yet there were plenty of occasions when several teams had them more on the rack than anyone did that C&U Series.
Still, I've never claimed WC2003 was exactly the greatest standard competition ever played... quite the opposite, in fact.

 

[Scallywag]

Do you still think Zimbabwe and Bangledesh would wipe the floor in the pura cup.

 

[Richard]

I said I did where exactly?

 

[Scallywag]

To call The Pura Cup "almost as competetive as Test-cricket" (presuming you actually mean "of a comparable standard") is quite laughable - any of the proper Test-sides, including West Indies, .

the recently completed test match between Zim and Bangers was a test match between two proper test nations was it not. Do players stats against Zim and Bangers count as proper test match stats do they.

 

[Sudeep]

Most of the names that come to my mind have been mentioned, except for Stuart Law.

 

[Richard]

the recently completed test match between Zim and Bangers was a test match between two proper test nations was it not. Do players stats against Zim and Bangers count as proper test match stats do they.

Yes, and they darn well shouldn't.
By referring to the proper Test-teams I hope I'd made that clear.

 

[tooextracool]

hehe let the english think their team is great - the ashes arn't too far off where they will no doubt be put in their place...

if you've been reading any of my posts lately, particularly the ones in the eng vs SA thread you would see that im one of the few people who've been criticising england for their performances this series. in fact ive always said that england have nearly no hope of winning the ashes this time around.
but just because you happen to have a good side, it doesnt mean that players who've never played test cricket(and the ones who have have been miserable failures anyways) would succeed for other teams. IMO a similar case could be made for england. how many sides in the world wouldnt have key, bell, collingwood, pieterson etc in their side?
IMO there are only 3 world class players who arent playing for australia ATM -katich, bevan and kasparowicz.

 

[marc71178]

if you've been reading any of my posts lately, particularly the ones in the eng vs SA thread you would see that im one of the few people who've been criticising england for their performances this series.

I think a few of us have to be fair.

 

[age_master]

my list of Aussies who would do well im other test sides

Macgill for sure, pretty good test record for Australia anyway
Mike Mussey
Simon Katich
Stuart Law
Martin Love
Matthew Elliot
Matthew Nicholson

Others who would be close (to my list )
David Hussey
Brad Hodge
Greg Blewett
Murray Goodwin
Andrew Symonds
Brad Haddin (based on what im seeing these days anyway)
Andrew Bichel
Jimmy Maher