honestbharani
Whatever it takes!!!
Why do you think the other analysts and commentators on the game from back then did not think much of it? I mean, it was their job to write about it if they thought it was significant.
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DoG's Top 100 Test Batsmen Countdown Thread
- Thread starter Days of Grace
- Start date
A player struggling in a certain country indicates he is not able to cope up to those conditions.
Allan Donald has a sub-25 average and sub-50 in every country except Australia. His record in Australia is the only thing that prevents him from being rated much higher or even the GOAT.
Ricky Ponting well documented struggles in India are commonly held as what makes him less than Lara or Sachin.
Virat Kohli is arguably the best batsman of this century. Till the last English tour, most people were doubting his ability to face the moving ball.
If Ponting/Donald/Kohli are subjected to so much scrutiny, why should Sobers alone get a free pass?
Does the fact that none of us saw him and cricket historians get an orgasm every time they talk about him has elevated Sobers’ stature sub-consciously?
Allan Donald has a sub-25 average and sub-50 in every country except Australia. His record in Australia is the only thing that prevents him from being rated much higher or even the GOAT.
Ricky Ponting well documented struggles in India are commonly held as what makes him less than Lara or Sachin.
Virat Kohli is arguably the best batsman of this century. Till the last English tour, most people were doubting his ability to face the moving ball.
If Ponting/Donald/Kohli are subjected to so much scrutiny, why should Sobers alone get a free pass?
Does the fact that none of us saw him and cricket historians get an orgasm every time they talk about him has elevated Sobers’ stature sub-consciously?
Sobers ticked all the right boxes.
A great batsman who was a delight to watch.
A good bowler who could bowl every variety.
A great fielder.
Most importantly, he had great performances against and in Australia and England, the two power centres in cricket back then.
Let’s be honest. Nobody cared about NZ. Nobody cares about a poor performance in NZ even now as long as one makes merry in Aus and Eng.
At Sobers was a great batsman with one blip in his career. Lillee’s case was worse. A genuinely quick bowler who was a delight to watch. Great performances in Australia and England. Barely took less than 30 wickets everywhere else. And the media called him “the complete fast bowler” in the 70s and 80s.
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_00_deathscar
International Regular
Anyone have a link to the standardised averages thread? Curious to see what that does to Sobers' average. More batsmen averaging 55+ in the 50s and 60s than in the 90s.
Sachin was averaging 5 more than the next best bat who played a similar amount of tests. This is a guy who averaged 58 in the notoriously difficult 90s. And a few of those tests were when he was still a spring chicken.
If anything, Sachin didn't really make hay in the 2000s when quite literally everyone else was (attributed a large part to injury and the change of his style, plus some struggles in batting/loss of form etc in general) - and that's partly where he has been 'penalised', if that's the right word, in his overall legacy.
It would have been interesting to see a 90s Sachin transported to the 2000s, sans injuries/issues. Reckon you'd have seen Ponting/Smith-like stats...or higher.
But then that would mean a practically 20 year peak which would be Bradman-like.
(Not saying either way - I never saw Sobers so can only go by statistics - just curious).
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Days of Grace
International Captain
No.39
Andy Flower (Zimbabwe) 772
Quality Points: 731
Career Points: 41
Career/Runs: 1992-2002, 4794 (rank 128)
Overall average/Runs per innings/Strike-rate: 49.75 (51.54) 41.31 (42.80) 43.93 (45.07) (rank 35)
50 Innings Peak Average/Runs per innings/Strike-rate (1998-2001): 72.16 53.40 45.74 (rank 14)
Non-Home Average/Runs per innings/Strike-rate: 48.70 39.14 42.75 (rank 51)
Quality Opposition Average/Runs per innings/Strike-rate: 46.96 38.98 46.36 (rank 57)
Zimbabwe's greatest test batsman. Second place Dave Houghton (554, rank 271) is not even in the frame. Flower wasn't much chop as a wicketkeeper, doing it mainly for team balance. But as a middle-order batsman he is almost up there with the best to have played the game. Many of his greatest efforts, such as the 341 runs against South Africa at Harare in 2001 or the 540 made in two matches in India one year earlier, were in vain, as he did not have the quality support to back him up, apart from Heath Streak. He peaked around the turn of the century and retired almost right away owing to the politics in his homeland. But he did enough to earn a rightful place in the top 40. He would undoubtedly have finished higher had he been allowed to play more matches.
Andy Flower (Zimbabwe) 772
Quality Points: 731
Career Points: 41
Career/Runs: 1992-2002, 4794 (rank 128)
Overall average/Runs per innings/Strike-rate: 49.75 (51.54) 41.31 (42.80) 43.93 (45.07) (rank 35)
50 Innings Peak Average/Runs per innings/Strike-rate (1998-2001): 72.16 53.40 45.74 (rank 14)
Non-Home Average/Runs per innings/Strike-rate: 48.70 39.14 42.75 (rank 51)
Quality Opposition Average/Runs per innings/Strike-rate: 46.96 38.98 46.36 (rank 57)
Zimbabwe's greatest test batsman. Second place Dave Houghton (554, rank 271) is not even in the frame. Flower wasn't much chop as a wicketkeeper, doing it mainly for team balance. But as a middle-order batsman he is almost up there with the best to have played the game. Many of his greatest efforts, such as the 341 runs against South Africa at Harare in 2001 or the 540 made in two matches in India one year earlier, were in vain, as he did not have the quality support to back him up, apart from Heath Streak. He peaked around the turn of the century and retired almost right away owing to the politics in his homeland. But he did enough to earn a rightful place in the top 40. He would undoubtedly have finished higher had he been allowed to play more matches.
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h_hurricane
International Vice-Captain
This is what I found about Sobers.
1. Sobers visited New Zealand as a teenager in 1955-56 when he was far from the finished product. Was just seen as a promising upcoming batsman. He scored 81 from 5 innings. 2 of them were run outs by the way
Bear in mind that he did not bat well against anyone in this period, not just NZ.
2. He did not visit there again for a freaking 13 years. Fast forward 1968-69, he had a great tour of Australia. Averaged closed to 50 with bat and bowled more than 200 overs. Despite this tiring schedule, he decided to play in NZ and the result is there for every one to see. 70 runs in 5 innings.
Based on this evidence of 5 innings when he was a teenager and 5 innings at the end of a tiring trip, is there a way to say Sobers had a weakness against NZ ?
1. Sobers visited New Zealand as a teenager in 1955-56 when he was far from the finished product. Was just seen as a promising upcoming batsman. He scored 81 from 5 innings. 2 of them were run outs by the way
Bear in mind that he did not bat well against anyone in this period, not just NZ.
2. He did not visit there again for a freaking 13 years. Fast forward 1968-69, he had a great tour of Australia. Averaged closed to 50 with bat and bowled more than 200 overs. Despite this tiring schedule, he decided to play in NZ and the result is there for every one to see. 70 runs in 5 innings.
Based on this evidence of 5 innings when he was a teenager and 5 innings at the end of a tiring trip, is there a way to say Sobers had a weakness against NZ ?
_00_deathscar
International Regular
I do hope Jayewardene isn't rated higher than Flower - Flower was fantastic as a bat.
Look at that peak too!
Look at that peak too!
Sobers scored 151 runs in 10 innings in NZ.This is what I found about Sobers.
1. Sobers visited New Zealand as a teenager in 1955-56 when he was far from the finished product. Was just seen as a promising upcoming batsman. He scored 81 from 5 innings. 2 of them were run outs by the way
Bear in mind that he did not bat well against anyone in this period, not just NZ.
2. He did not visit there again for a freaking 13 years. Fast forward 1968-69, he had a great tour of Australia. Averaged closed to 50 with bat and bowled more than 200 overs. Despite this tiring schedule, he decided to play in NZ and the result is there for every one to see. 70 runs in 5 innings.
Based on this evidence of 5 innings when he was a teenager and 5 innings at the end of a tiring trip, is there a way to say Sobers had a weakness against NZ ?
Which do you think is more believable? He wasn’t good in NZ? Or he was a teenager the first time and tired the second time?
Also; Sobers averages 15 in NZ. Richards averages 19 in NZ. Lara averages 35 in NZ. For some reason, the three greats struggled there.
h_hurricane
International Vice-Captain
I would rate Sobers slightly higher than Tendulkar. For a good part of his career, Sobers was a 60 averaging batsman and ended up at 58 with a brief decline. He played for 2 decades and passes the longevity criteria just like Sachin.
There isn't much between the two. If I have to pick one, I would pick Sobers. They both belong to the same tier for me.
h_hurricane
International Vice-Captain
Easily the second. As I explained earlier, Sobers was a poor batsman when he was a teenager. He didn't perform well against anyone let alone NZ.
You ask any ATG batsman to bowl 1200 plus deliveries in a series and then ask him "Are you tired ?"
Sobers was a pure one off in the history without a shadow of doubt, with or without nostalgia.
You are comparing performance in a single stadium to a performance in a single country?
Sobers vs NZ
In NZ : 151 runs in 10 innings
In WI : 250 in 8 innings
There was something that troubled Sobers’ against NZ. Since I never saw Sobers’ play, I am just pointing out a hole in his record.
Just curious, how would you rate Ken Barrington? He debuted in 1954(same year as Sobers) and retired in 1968? His overall average was 58 which was higher than Sobers. He averaged 50+ in Aus, SA, Eng, NZ, Ind, Pak and his lowest average was 44+ in WI. I have a feeling he would rank very highly in DoG list. Except for his low SR, his record is perfect.
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OverratedSanity
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Flower's peak is pretty amazing. Shame he couldn't play for longer.
h_hurricane
International Vice-Captain
Barrington is really under-rated imo. England's best batsman post Hutton. I believe the reason many don't rate him as high as Hobbs, Hutton or Hammond is his first class record.Great batsmen are subject to stiffer criteria than merely good batsmen. Still an ATG batsman for me, or near or thereabouts.
Fine.
I think we should have our Sobers discussion later in this thread.
Looks like our discussion about Sobers and Sobers vs Sachin is dominating Andy Flower’s moment to shine in this thread ?
_00_deathscar
International Regular
He wasn't very good, yea. And when you're picking a keeper for a hypothetical ATG XI, he should at the very least be halfway decent in his primary chosen skill.
Otherwise he'd be an absolute lock in an ATG XI - exceptional batsman as you said.