DoG's Top 100 Test Batsmen Countdown Thread

[Spark]

This is what I found about Sobers.

1. Sobers visited New Zealand as a teenager in 1955-56 when he was far from the finished product. Was just seen as a promising upcoming batsman. He scored 81 from 5 innings. 2 of them were run outs by the way
Bear in mind that he did not bat well against anyone in this period, not just NZ.

2. He did not visit there again for a freaking 13 years. Fast forward 1968-69, he had a great tour of Australia. Averaged closed to 50 with bat and bowled more than 200 overs. Despite this tiring schedule, he decided to play in NZ and the result is there for every one to see. 70 runs in 5 innings.

Based on this evidence of 5 innings when he was a teenager and 5 innings at the end of a tiring trip, is there a way to say Sobers had a weakness against NZ ?

I believe there is a highly technical and scientific word for this: "smallsamplesizelol"

 

[mr_mister]

Could have been the equivalent of what Smith has just done at home after his amazing ashes for the '68 example

And countless young bats have similar stories for the '55 example

Just didn't get a couple of tours in between to show his stuff there

 

[Coronis]

Yeah not a great keeper but a marvelous batsman. Shame he didn’t get to play more.

On Sobers, as the saying goes, stats without context are meaningless. Idk about the series he played against NZ at home, but his first tour he wasn’t even a batsman, hadn’t even scored a century at that point. Second tour was less than a week after a 5 test tour vs Aus, and was the beginning of his decline. I’m not going to downgrade him for his record in NZ at all.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Yeah not a great keeper but a marvelous batsman. Shame he didn’t get to play more.

On Sobers, as the saying goes, stats without context are meaningless. Idk about the series he played against NZ at home, but his first tour he wasn’t even a batsman, hadn’t even scored a century at that point. Second tour was less than a week after a 5 test tour vs Aus, and was the beginning of his decline. I’m not going to downgrade him for his record in NZ at all.

Yeah that's fair I think. Especially the first one when he was a teenager, it's fair to give him a pass. Not sure I buy that the 5 test tour shouldn't count but it was just one series so meh.

 

[stephen]

Goodness me. Sobers was proclaimed the second best batsman behind Bradman by pretty much everyone who saw him or played against him.

At a guess, 38, 37, 36 will be Samaraweera, Inzimam and Sutcliffe.

 

[h_hurricane]

Samaraweera came a fair while back iirc.

 

[_00_deathscar]

Is Samaraweera really in the running for this? He shouldn't be. There's no way him and Flower were the same class of batsmen.

 

[mr_mister]

Surely Sutcliffe is top 30. We can only downgrade a bloke who never averaged below 60 in tests so much

 

[h_hurricane]

Certainly not twice. He was placed at no. 73.

 

[stephen]

Ah whoops. Well scratch Samaraweera (who I remember commenting about now).

I only say Sutcliffe because I couldn't think of another random guy who would obviously be rated too low at 36 but you could sort of seeing it happen randomly.

 

[Logan]

Surely Sutcliffe is top 30. We can only downgrade a bloke who never averaged below 60 in tests so much

Will be Top 15

I think England will have 4-5 batsmen in the Top 15. Hutton, Hammond, Sutcliffe, Barrington and Hobbs.

 

[Slifer]

Sobers scored 151 runs in 10 innings in NZ.

Which do you think is more believable? He wasn’t good in NZ? Or he was a teenager the first time and tired the second time?

Also; Sobers averages 15 in NZ. Richards averages 19 in NZ. Lara averages 35 in NZ. For some reason, the three greats struggled there.

Lara didn't struggle in NZ. Up until his very last series there at the end of his career, he was averaging around 45 or so from a very small sample of tests. His isn't a case like Ponting in india where he was dire in every series. In '95 lara averaged 74 from 2 tests, in '00 41 again from 2 tests. Then in '06 over 3 tests he averaged 18 vs a rampaging Bond and co. That sent his overall average plummeting.

Richards only played 3 tests in Nz which imo is hardly a large enough sample size to say he struggled against them.

Sobers is a curious one. I honestly just think he wasnt particularly motivated to play against them but then again that really isn't a valid excuse for such a dire dire record.

No worries for a WI atg, they can just sub in the 3 Ws and Chanders for away games to NZ lol lol.

 

[pardus]

We can keep filtering data and make choices according to our personal biases or preferences.
For example, Sachin averages in low 30s whenever there is a McGrath or a Wasim Akram or an Allan Donald in the opposition Test attack. Arguably the 3 best fast bowlers of the 90s whom he faced in multiple Test series.
Out of 9 Test series, he has played against these bowlers, only once did he average above 50 (that too just barely - when he averaged 50.3 against McGrath in that Laxman series in 2001).
Lara - supposedly a great player of spin - has a very modest record against India.
There is no end to data filtering to point out holes in anyone's CV to prove one's point.

 

[Slifer]

We can keep filtering data and make choices according to our personal biases or preferences.
For example, Sachin averages in low 30s whenever there is a McGrath or a Wasim Akram or an Allan Donald in the opposition Test attack. Arguably the 3 best fast bowlers of the 90s whom he faced in multiple Test series.
Out of 9 Test series, he has played against these bowlers, only once did he average above 50 (that too just barely - when he averaged 50.3 against McGrath in that Laxman series in 2001).
Lara - supposedly a great player of spin - has a very modest record against India.
There is no end to data filtering to point out holes in anyone's CV to prove one's point.

Awta.

 

[ataraxia]

Top 10 reprediction:

Bradman
Smith
Hobbs
Sobers
Hammond
Sutcliffe
Sangakkara
Hutton
Barrington
Tendulkar

 

[Burgey]

I think tendulkar will be a bit higher than that but all ten worthy of their places. Possibly Lara over Barrington maybe? The latter’s stats are immense but he’s never mentioned in the same breath as Sobers and others from that era. I suspect he was somewhat four and one paced.

Certainly I never hear blokes like Chappelli speak of him as someone who hurt them S bad as others. Next time I see Dougie I’ll ask about him.

 

[ataraxia]

I think tendulkar will be a bit higher than that but all ten worthy of their places. Possibly Lara over Barrington maybe? The latter’s stats are immense but he’s never mentioned in the same breath as Sobers and others from that era. I suspect he was somewhat four and one paced.

Certainly I never hear blokes like Chappelli speak of him as someone who hurt them S bad as others. Next time I see Dougie I’ll ask about him.

It's mainly based on stats and patterns with adjusted averages for each era, that prediction. Obviously vastly different from my top 10, which is something like:

Bradman
Hutton
Hobbs
Grace
Sobers
Hammond
Tendulkar
Kallis
Smith
Pollock

I'm not really prepared to rate players in the prime of their careers like Smith and Kohli all that highly. Smith will probably end up around Hammond-level on my thing but he could have a Ponting-esque decline.

 

[Burgey]

Yeah fair enough approach.

 

[SillyCowCorner1]

Richards >Sobers>Lara>Headley>> other Wi batsmen

My I have a soft spot for lefties applies here.

 

[The Battlers Prince]

Top 10 reprediction:

Bradman
Smith
Hobbs
Sobers
Hammond
Sutcliffe
Sangakkara
Hutton
Barrington
Tendulkar

All good choices, I seem to recall last time DoG’s ratings of individual innings helped put Lara higher up the list. He has more high class innings than the likes of Tendulkar iirc