SillyCowCorner1
Moooo
*Sir
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CW decides the 32 best test* opening batsmen of all time - The countdown thread!
- Thread starter mr_mister
- Start date
*Sir
I dont really like the criterion 'in xyz position' as stated in the rules of this vote. The reason is that it often tends to coincide with a players peak- you dont mess with success, and when a player is in a purple patch, they tend to stay in a particular position. If they dont have form, they tend to get moved around the order according to stages in career.#17: Bruce Mitchell (60 points)
Lists featured on: 10/29
Top 5 finishes: 0
Highest finish: 8th (2)
Bruce Mitchell played 42 consecutive tests for his nation from 1929 to 1949 and truly flies under the radar when it comes to test openers - his record was really, really good.
He played 40 of his tests against top tier opposition, Australia and England and produced these results: an average of 31 from 10 tests against Australia and 54 from 30 tests against England.
His failures against Australia are what probably stopped him from reaching legend status and in two series against them couldn't produce a century. Grimmett, first with the help of Ironmonger then later with O'Reilly could certainly have been factors. England's big threats that he dealt successfully with included Tate, Larwood, Verity and Bedser after the war but on the whole it seems he was more suited to pace than spin. Like plenty of openers.
However - only 9 of his 20 innings against Australia were as an opener. For whatever reasons he played quite a few innings at 3 and even 4/5 against them. And wouldn't you know it his 2 highest scores against Australia (95 and 75) came as an opener.
So for those playing close attention this clearly leads to one conclusion - Mitchell's record as an opener was awesome. And it indeed it was. Using the criteria for min 30 innings, Mitchell's average as a test opener is the 2nd best ever behind only Herb Sutcliffe. Ahead of both Hobbs and Hutton - two relative peers. He averaged 57 as a test opener from 48 digs, quite a boost from his overall average of 48, which of course is still fantastic.
His record against England was awesome. He played six 5 test series against them and only in his first in 1929 at 20 did he not tear them up, hitting 251 runs in that encounter. For the remaining 5 series he cleared 450 runs every time. He averaged over 50 in all 5 of these and got at least 1 ton every time. The series where he got 2 was his best - and what a set of tons they were. In the final test of the 1947 series at the oval he cracked 120 in the first dig followed by 189* in the second. South Africa ended up 423/7 chasing 451 for victory when this 4 day test match concluded. What a joke! Robbed of an amazing result and amazing chance at immortality, this must have been some bloody performance from Bruce Mitchell. Oh and he was nearly 40 here.
Mitchell was the leading run scorer for his nation until re-admission in the '90s when Kirsten scraped past him, rather unconvincingly(at the time of the passing at least before Kirsten improved in the 2000s). Mitchell's omission from the 1949 test series against Australia caused a 'sensation'. Despite being 40 he had demonstrated in the prior years he was still absolutely the best man for the job and could have rectified his record against Australia. It was known at the time to be pretty shabby treatment for the man, who had given the best part of 20 years to his nation. He had the reputation as a defensive batsman which it seems was unfair as he had little in the way of support nearly his whole career so he had to dig in or his side could crumble. It's been speculated if he had been part of a stronger side he may have been able to bat more freely and really give Hobbs and Hutton a run for their money. Yes his career overlapped with Taylor and Nourse but he only had the help of one of them at a time and for a few years neither of them.
A true legend. He looks like an unassuming bloke in the picture too.
Interestingly, Mitchell more or less started and ended his 20 year career as an opener, with the odd test out of position.
He averaged 57 as an opener, and 63 away, while playing almost all tests against the two best opponents of his era. Statistically, an argument for the best opener ever?
I am not getting carried away here... I am not even sure if he belongs in an RSA XI, and would get nowhere near GOAT discussions in my mind. But underrated, for sure when we are considering records as openers only with an eye on longevity.
mr_mister
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Yeah I take your point re the xyz position stuff. I don't think it was really considered much in the voting process by many people, hence Mitchell not cracking the top 15 despite having the second best average as opener
I just thought it was worth bringing up because I certainly think it's a cool stat and yes i do tend to get a bit carried away sometimes when praising certain players, especially underrated ones
I just thought it was worth bringing up because I certainly think it's a cool stat and yes i do tend to get a bit carried away sometimes when praising certain players, especially underrated ones
Line and Length
Cricketer Of The Year
But for his inauspicious Test debut in 1975 and a 3 year ban following is 'rebel' tour of South Africa in 1982, Graham Gooch may well have finished with career statistics even more impressive than those he ended with.
That ban came while he was in his early 30s and, arguably near his peak. He also missed the 86/87 tour of Australia citing "personal reasons".
It is pure conjecture as to "what might have been", but these factors need to be considered.
That ban came while he was in his early 30s and, arguably near his peak. He also missed the 86/87 tour of Australia citing "personal reasons".
It is pure conjecture as to "what might have been", but these factors need to be considered.
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TheJediBrah
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You can say this, or something similar, about almost any cricketer tbh
a massive zebra
International Captain
Kooee is a new word on me.#19: Alastair Cook (43 points)
Lists featured on: 14/29
Top 5 finishes: 1
Highest finish: 3rd (1)
A decent jump in lists featured on and total points here. We enter a new phase of the countdown.
Alastair Cook, a man who managed to rack up 161 tests before retiring at international cricket at the young age of 33(for a modern batsman) certainly has a tremendous record under his belt. When you look at longevity achievements it's easy to find a lot of ways to build him up. He cracked 1200 test runs in a calendar year 4 times, as far as I know the only man to ever have done this. Yes, opener, yes England play a lot of tests but still it's amazing. Cook scored the 5th most runs ever(in a test career spanning 12 years, the 4 above him all played for 16 years or more) and he holds the record for most test runs as an opener. He could certainly keep this particular one for a while with David Warner the only person within kooee of this figure and with precious little chance to get much closer to it.
Cook has been such a vital part in the resurgence and consolidation of English cricket as one of the superpowers. He wasn't there in 05, sure, but he has featured in several ashes victories since, I'd guess probably the most of any Englishmen. In 2010/11 he scored test 766 runs over an Aussie summer and other than Michael Vaughan this I think has been the only English opener in my lifetime to look up to the task of bringing the fight to us on our turf.
His overall record is a good one, having played plenty of tests against all nations and only having one or two 'failures' on his report card in the form of averaging 35 overall against SA and 27 in the seam/swing friendly conditions of NZ. That last one is a little strange considering you'd think English and NZ batting conditions might have had some similarity. Alas against Australia and India he averaged over 40, and in Asia, over 50.
For a time it seemed like he was on track to maybe... possibly score the most test runs/hundreds ever and certainly average 50, but he faltered bit in the last couple of years. His 2017 was a whole lot of not much before a career prolonging 243 against the West Indies.... then an even longer, more worrying loss of form before a life-support knock of 244* near the end of the most recent ashes held in Australia. That one came after 83 runs total in the first 6 innings of the series and certainly had an air of dead-rubber Dean Jones ton, but it quelled rumors that he had forgotten how to bat. What I find interesting was the sheer size of these recovery knocks. Not just content with finally getting to a ton after a long dry spell and throwing it away(Like Mark Taylor in the '97 ashes) he turned both of these innings into doubles. Which is commendable.
In 2018 however he truly seemed past it and ready to be put out to pasture, cracking 1 lone fifty in the first 9 test of that year, announcing his retirement before/during the India series(I forget when) but ending with a bang, with 71 and 147 in the final match to maybe pose some questions of whether he was actually past it. Maybe the pressure release and exceptions disappearing is what he needed to get runs again. Will we ever see him again? Maybe.. who knows
For the last few years he went through around 10 opening partners, the disruption to the rhythm he had with longtime partner Strauss likely playing a factor in his end of career form slump.
I don't think Cook will hold the record for most Ashes victories among Englishmen. Between 1882/1883 and 1896 there were 12 Ashes series of which England won 11. So I expect some of their best players of that era such as WG Grace, Arthur Shrewsbury, Andrew Stoddart, Walter Read, George Lohmann, Bobby Peel and Johnny Briggs probably played in more.
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TheJediBrah
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Fun stat, to go with however many Ashes series wins has (4, I think) has also lost two Ashes series 5-0 and one 4-0
Briggs played in 8 of those series (including the one-match "series" in 1887-8).
Howe_zat
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He actually went through 13 opening partners after Strauss retired (having opened with him 112 times), for a total of 15 partners.
I did think he'd have the most on your list for a while, but you immediately followed him with Gooch, who clocked up 18 opening partners. He actually had two regular opening mates - Boycott (49 innings) and Atherton (44) - but between the two went through partners like Casinova. Cook's opening pairs tended to last for one series before swapping out, but seven different pairs of Gooch/x lasted for only one test match.
mr_mister
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
#16: Bill Ponsford (66 points)
Lists featured on: 12/29
Top 5 finishes: 0
Highest finish: 6th (1)
Bill Ponsford seemed to have the ingredients to be Bradman level. When studying his first class record it's quite clear he had the same insane appetite for runs as the Don. He struggled to replicate consistent form in tests, enduring 3 mini peaks(at the beginning, middle and end) with nothing much in between. But more on that later.
I'll discuss his FC record a bit since it's so impressive. He averaged 65 overall, in the same ballpark as Merchant, Headley and Woodfull. It's clear Ponsford was a man who when he was in form was impossible to dislodge. He hit 429 in his 4th first class innings, 'creating a sensation' in 1924. This was at the time the highest ever FC class score and he managed to better to 437 four years later before Bradman of course cracked 452.
He hit a ton each in his first 2 tests and many thought he was on a sure path to being the greatest. A poor England tour followed in 1926 but then back home in Australia the following summer domestically made magic. I'll just quote it
Never before had anyone strung together such a series of colossal scores as Ponsford did in 1926-27 and 1927-28. In 1926-27, his innings were 214 and 54, 151, 352, 108 and 84, 12 and 116, 131 and 7, producing an aggregate of 1229 runs at 122.90; in 1927-28 he scored 133, 437, 202 and 38, 336, 6 and 2, and 63 - an aggregate of 1217 at 152.12.
He hit centuries in 11 consecutive first class games on home soil and it's fair to say he was just phenomenal at the time. Whether docile pitches or weak bowlers played a factor is irrelevant, this was crazy stuff. Of the 10 tons I just posted there - he passed 400 once, 300 three times, 200 five times and 150 six times. Extraordinary levels of conversion into big daddy hundreds.
His test career never really got going though(or at least to the potential he had) and is quite interesting to look at it.
He played 29 tests for an average of 48 with 7 tons, but funnily enough he had huge patches of poor form. 2 tons his first 2 tests, then he didn't score another til his 13th in 1930 six years later. 110 in the final test at the Oval(after Bradman had played the series of a lifetime to truly eclipse Ponsford once and all) was followed by a solid home season against the Windies. He scored 24 and 92* in the first test, 183 in the second and 109 in the third and he appeared to be back to his best.
But then it was more poor form across a few series(including Bodyline) before he finally got another ton, his 6th, in his 28th and penultimate test in 1934. This 181 at was followed by 266 at the Oval in a 451 run stand with the Don and this was more or less Ponsford's last hurrah as a cricketer. But it wasn't a bad way to go out. He actually averaged 40 at home and 62 away which is quite something, despite limited contributions til his final 2 away tests. His career runs chart would appear to look a lot like a 3 humped camels back.
Ponsford, when in could clearly bat forever. He must have been a little suspect to the new ball - or perhaps he took a while at the start of an innings to focus and get his concentration keyed in. But for whatever reason the man couldn't muster an average of 50 in tests. But what he did achieve is still admirable. He averaged 47 against England who he played 20 tests against. From one series each against SA and West Indies he averaged 19 and 77 - so one case of minnow bashing and one case of minnow choking. Though I guess WI at least had Constantine.
So there's no glaring holes on his record or explanations for his form randomly jumping up to ATG level and down to quite average a few times over the course of his career. Perhaps Australia not hosting any test for the 26/27 summer when he was killing it in the Sheffield shield was a bit of bad luck for him.
Lists featured on: 12/29
Top 5 finishes: 0
Highest finish: 6th (1)
Bill Ponsford seemed to have the ingredients to be Bradman level. When studying his first class record it's quite clear he had the same insane appetite for runs as the Don. He struggled to replicate consistent form in tests, enduring 3 mini peaks(at the beginning, middle and end) with nothing much in between. But more on that later.
I'll discuss his FC record a bit since it's so impressive. He averaged 65 overall, in the same ballpark as Merchant, Headley and Woodfull. It's clear Ponsford was a man who when he was in form was impossible to dislodge. He hit 429 in his 4th first class innings, 'creating a sensation' in 1924. This was at the time the highest ever FC class score and he managed to better to 437 four years later before Bradman of course cracked 452.
He hit a ton each in his first 2 tests and many thought he was on a sure path to being the greatest. A poor England tour followed in 1926 but then back home in Australia the following summer domestically made magic. I'll just quote it
Never before had anyone strung together such a series of colossal scores as Ponsford did in 1926-27 and 1927-28. In 1926-27, his innings were 214 and 54, 151, 352, 108 and 84, 12 and 116, 131 and 7, producing an aggregate of 1229 runs at 122.90; in 1927-28 he scored 133, 437, 202 and 38, 336, 6 and 2, and 63 - an aggregate of 1217 at 152.12.
He hit centuries in 11 consecutive first class games on home soil and it's fair to say he was just phenomenal at the time. Whether docile pitches or weak bowlers played a factor is irrelevant, this was crazy stuff. Of the 10 tons I just posted there - he passed 400 once, 300 three times, 200 five times and 150 six times. Extraordinary levels of conversion into big daddy hundreds.
His test career never really got going though(or at least to the potential he had) and is quite interesting to look at it.
He played 29 tests for an average of 48 with 7 tons, but funnily enough he had huge patches of poor form. 2 tons his first 2 tests, then he didn't score another til his 13th in 1930 six years later. 110 in the final test at the Oval(after Bradman had played the series of a lifetime to truly eclipse Ponsford once and all) was followed by a solid home season against the Windies. He scored 24 and 92* in the first test, 183 in the second and 109 in the third and he appeared to be back to his best.
But then it was more poor form across a few series(including Bodyline) before he finally got another ton, his 6th, in his 28th and penultimate test in 1934. This 181 at was followed by 266 at the Oval in a 451 run stand with the Don and this was more or less Ponsford's last hurrah as a cricketer. But it wasn't a bad way to go out. He actually averaged 40 at home and 62 away which is quite something, despite limited contributions til his final 2 away tests. His career runs chart would appear to look a lot like a 3 humped camels back.
Ponsford, when in could clearly bat forever. He must have been a little suspect to the new ball - or perhaps he took a while at the start of an innings to focus and get his concentration keyed in. But for whatever reason the man couldn't muster an average of 50 in tests. But what he did achieve is still admirable. He averaged 47 against England who he played 20 tests against. From one series each against SA and West Indies he averaged 19 and 77 - so one case of minnow bashing and one case of minnow choking. Though I guess WI at least had Constantine.
So there's no glaring holes on his record or explanations for his form randomly jumping up to ATG level and down to quite average a few times over the course of his career. Perhaps Australia not hosting any test for the 26/27 summer when he was killing it in the Sheffield shield was a bit of bad luck for him.
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SillyCowCorner1
Moooo
The 183 he made against the West Indies must have been his toughest.
trundler
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Weekes averaged 69 at home and 49 away. He comes closest.
That's correct for players with an overall average of >40 with at least 10 completed innings both home and away. If you don't set a minimum average, Chris Broad is top with home average 26, away 57.
(Also this is for specifically "away av - home av"'; there are plenty with a bigger value for "home av - away av").
Correct. I should have qualified with a minimum of 2,000 Test runs
TheJediBrah
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If we're including players who have a higher home average than away then David Warner blows this out of the water. His home average is 32 runs higher than his away average. There's probably a lot more too.
a massive zebra
International Captain
Compton averaged 60 at home and 36 away.