stephen
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Yeah. The only Australian openers in the same class as a pair were Simpson and Lawry.
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CW decides the 32 best test* opening batsmen of all time - The countdown thread!
- Thread starter mr_mister
- Start date
Fuller Pilch
Hall of Fame Member
Woodfull and Ponsford?
stephen
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Loved Boony but certainly these two weren't in the same class as Slater and Taylor.
Surprisingly*, they only opened together for Australia in 22 innings, and of the 19 Aussie pairs who opened 20+ times in Tests, they rank only 15th for "partnership average".
*Well, it surprised me.
Fuller Pilch
Hall of Fame Member
That's interesting (and yes surprising). Both had ridiculously high Sheffield Shield averages.
Red
The normal awards that everyone else has
I wasn't being serious with that one.
mr_mister
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
#19: Alastair Cook (43 points)
Lists featured on: 14/29
Top 5 finishes: 1
Highest finish: 3rd (1)
A decent jump in lists featured on and total points here. We enter a new phase of the countdown.
Alastair Cook, a man who managed to rack up 161 tests before retiring at international cricket at the young age of 33(for a modern batsman) certainly has a tremendous record under his belt. When you look at longevity achievements it's easy to find a lot of ways to build him up. He cracked 1200 test runs in a calendar year 4 times, as far as I know the only man to ever have done this. Yes, opener, yes England play a lot of tests but still it's amazing. Cook scored the 5th most runs ever(in a test career spanning 12 years, the 4 above him all played for 16 years or more) and he holds the record for most test runs as an opener. He could certainly keep this particular one for a while with David Warner the only person within kooee of this figure and with precious little chance to get much closer to it.
Cook has been such a vital part in the resurgence and consolidation of English cricket as one of the superpowers. He wasn't there in 05, sure, but he has featured in several ashes victories since, I'd guess probably the most of any Englishmen. In 2010/11 he scored test 766 runs over an Aussie summer and other than Michael Vaughan this I think has been the only English opener in my lifetime to look up to the task of bringing the fight to us on our turf.
His overall record is a good one, having played plenty of tests against all nations and only having one or two 'failures' on his report card in the form of averaging 35 overall against SA and 27 in the seam/swing friendly conditions of NZ. That last one is a little strange considering you'd think English and NZ batting conditions might have had some similarity. Alas against Australia and India he averaged over 40, and in Asia, over 50.
For a time it seemed like he was on track to maybe... possibly score the most test runs/hundreds ever and certainly average 50, but he faltered bit in the last couple of years. His 2017 was a whole lot of not much before a career prolonging 243 against the West Indies.... then an even longer, more worrying loss of form before a life-support knock of 244* near the end of the most recent ashes held in Australia. That one came after 83 runs total in the first 6 innings of the series and certainly had an air of dead-rubber Dean Jones ton, but it quelled rumors that he had forgotten how to bat. What I find interesting was the sheer size of these recovery knocks. Not just content with finally getting to a ton after a long dry spell and throwing it away(Like Mark Taylor in the '97 ashes) he turned both of these innings into doubles. Which is commendable.
In 2018 however he truly seemed past it and ready to be put out to pasture, cracking 1 lone fifty in the first 9 test of that year, announcing his retirement before/during the India series(I forget when) but ending with a bang, with 71 and 147 in the final match to maybe pose some questions of whether he was actually past it. Maybe the pressure release and exceptions disappearing is what he needed to get runs again. Will we ever see him again? Maybe.. who knows
For the last few years he went through around 10 opening partners, the disruption to the rhythm he had with longtime partner Strauss likely playing a factor in his end of career form slump.
Lists featured on: 14/29
Top 5 finishes: 1
Highest finish: 3rd (1)
A decent jump in lists featured on and total points here. We enter a new phase of the countdown.
Alastair Cook, a man who managed to rack up 161 tests before retiring at international cricket at the young age of 33(for a modern batsman) certainly has a tremendous record under his belt. When you look at longevity achievements it's easy to find a lot of ways to build him up. He cracked 1200 test runs in a calendar year 4 times, as far as I know the only man to ever have done this. Yes, opener, yes England play a lot of tests but still it's amazing. Cook scored the 5th most runs ever(in a test career spanning 12 years, the 4 above him all played for 16 years or more) and he holds the record for most test runs as an opener. He could certainly keep this particular one for a while with David Warner the only person within kooee of this figure and with precious little chance to get much closer to it.
Cook has been such a vital part in the resurgence and consolidation of English cricket as one of the superpowers. He wasn't there in 05, sure, but he has featured in several ashes victories since, I'd guess probably the most of any Englishmen. In 2010/11 he scored test 766 runs over an Aussie summer and other than Michael Vaughan this I think has been the only English opener in my lifetime to look up to the task of bringing the fight to us on our turf.
His overall record is a good one, having played plenty of tests against all nations and only having one or two 'failures' on his report card in the form of averaging 35 overall against SA and 27 in the seam/swing friendly conditions of NZ. That last one is a little strange considering you'd think English and NZ batting conditions might have had some similarity. Alas against Australia and India he averaged over 40, and in Asia, over 50.
For a time it seemed like he was on track to maybe... possibly score the most test runs/hundreds ever and certainly average 50, but he faltered bit in the last couple of years. His 2017 was a whole lot of not much before a career prolonging 243 against the West Indies.... then an even longer, more worrying loss of form before a life-support knock of 244* near the end of the most recent ashes held in Australia. That one came after 83 runs total in the first 6 innings of the series and certainly had an air of dead-rubber Dean Jones ton, but it quelled rumors that he had forgotten how to bat. What I find interesting was the sheer size of these recovery knocks. Not just content with finally getting to a ton after a long dry spell and throwing it away(Like Mark Taylor in the '97 ashes) he turned both of these innings into doubles. Which is commendable.
In 2018 however he truly seemed past it and ready to be put out to pasture, cracking 1 lone fifty in the first 9 test of that year, announcing his retirement before/during the India series(I forget when) but ending with a bang, with 71 and 147 in the final match to maybe pose some questions of whether he was actually past it. Maybe the pressure release and exceptions disappearing is what he needed to get runs again. Will we ever see him again? Maybe.. who knows
For the last few years he went through around 10 opening partners, the disruption to the rhythm he had with longtime partner Strauss likely playing a factor in his end of career form slump.
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mr_mister
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
#18: Graham Gooch (56 points)
Lists featured on: 11/29
Top 5 finishes: 1
Highest finish: 6th (1)
Graham Gooch comes in as the 6th greatest English test opener, according to CW. 9 in total made it onto this list.
Goochie is such an engima. Armed with long limbs and a very regal surname and mustache,(I've seen funny descriptions of it, the best being something like 'it simply must have saw some action in the Great War') Gooch is best known round these parts for his late career rise from good to great. From sometimes useful cog to England's best batsman of an era. Debuting in 1975 and lasting all the way to 1995, his career oversaw tremendous change, unfortunately mainly downwards, in the direction of English cricket. But he did his best to keep them his nation afloat and his final years as captain he almost seems like an Anti/Bizzaro-Border. As the elder statesmen he continued to fight like an old war dog as it all came crashing down around him, the inverse to Border's fighting which resulted in a surge to superiority for Australia.
After 47 tests and 10 years after his debut Gooch averaged 35 with 4 tons. He was around 32 at this time and I'm sure many people were ready to write his test career off as a failure regardless of what he had and achieved and continued to on the county circuit. It all changed in the final test of the 1985 ashes where he plundered 196(in a 351 run stand with Gower) to set his test career, at least individually, on a new trajectory.
He endured a 61 test period which yielded 16 tons and averaged 51 from 85-94 from the ages of 32-41. Quite remarkable really and almost unheard of for someone to keep improving that late in the piece. He got that career average up to 42.5 before retiring and is remembered by most to be England's best player of the '90s despite only playing for the first half of it.
The peak within the peak came during a 20 test period from 1990-1992, where he hit 8 tons and averaged the best part of 70. This included some of his most famous knocks, the 2 most famous being the 333 against India in 1990 and the 154* against the Windies the following year, which came in a team total of 252 and was more than vital to his side wining that match. Oh and of course it came against a pace attack of Ambrose, Marshall, Walsh and Patterson.
Gooch played a lot of ashes cricket. He started off with a pair in 1975 against Lillee and Thommo and nearly 20 years later in the 1993 series hit 673 runs against Shane Warne and co. Him and Atherton did really well that series actually. His overall average Australia was however a mere 33 from 42 tests, this last hurrah in '93 acting as a reward for his years of torment at the hand of Aussie bowlers more than indication of his standard output.
Against the West Indies with generally a tougher set of bowlers he averaged 44 from 26 tests. Perhaps a better indication of his potential as an opening batsman. He even kept it to above 40 in the West Indies.
The highlight though was the 752 run series against India(w/ Kapil and Kumble) in 1990 from only 3 tests, at an average of 125 with 3 hundreds and 2 fifties. What he could have done with an extra test there(or two) is anyone's guess as his form was red hot.
Lists featured on: 11/29
Top 5 finishes: 1
Highest finish: 6th (1)
Graham Gooch comes in as the 6th greatest English test opener, according to CW. 9 in total made it onto this list.
Goochie is such an engima. Armed with long limbs and a very regal surname and mustache,(I've seen funny descriptions of it, the best being something like 'it simply must have saw some action in the Great War') Gooch is best known round these parts for his late career rise from good to great. From sometimes useful cog to England's best batsman of an era. Debuting in 1975 and lasting all the way to 1995, his career oversaw tremendous change, unfortunately mainly downwards, in the direction of English cricket. But he did his best to keep them his nation afloat and his final years as captain he almost seems like an Anti/Bizzaro-Border. As the elder statesmen he continued to fight like an old war dog as it all came crashing down around him, the inverse to Border's fighting which resulted in a surge to superiority for Australia.
After 47 tests and 10 years after his debut Gooch averaged 35 with 4 tons. He was around 32 at this time and I'm sure many people were ready to write his test career off as a failure regardless of what he had and achieved and continued to on the county circuit. It all changed in the final test of the 1985 ashes where he plundered 196(in a 351 run stand with Gower) to set his test career, at least individually, on a new trajectory.
He endured a 61 test period which yielded 16 tons and averaged 51 from 85-94 from the ages of 32-41. Quite remarkable really and almost unheard of for someone to keep improving that late in the piece. He got that career average up to 42.5 before retiring and is remembered by most to be England's best player of the '90s despite only playing for the first half of it.
The peak within the peak came during a 20 test period from 1990-1992, where he hit 8 tons and averaged the best part of 70. This included some of his most famous knocks, the 2 most famous being the 333 against India in 1990 and the 154* against the Windies the following year, which came in a team total of 252 and was more than vital to his side wining that match. Oh and of course it came against a pace attack of Ambrose, Marshall, Walsh and Patterson.
Gooch played a lot of ashes cricket. He started off with a pair in 1975 against Lillee and Thommo and nearly 20 years later in the 1993 series hit 673 runs against Shane Warne and co. Him and Atherton did really well that series actually. His overall average Australia was however a mere 33 from 42 tests, this last hurrah in '93 acting as a reward for his years of torment at the hand of Aussie bowlers more than indication of his standard output.
Against the West Indies with generally a tougher set of bowlers he averaged 44 from 26 tests. Perhaps a better indication of his potential as an opening batsman. He even kept it to above 40 in the West Indies.
The highlight though was the 752 run series against India(w/ Kapil and Kumble) in 1990 from only 3 tests, at an average of 125 with 3 hundreds and 2 fifties. What he could have done with an extra test there(or two) is anyone's guess as his form was red hot.
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Lillian Thomson
Hall of Fame Member
Gooch was the first truly young batsman (21 was truly young by England selection standards at the time) that I remember being picked for England. He got a pair, which can happen. Then made another single figure score and a thirty odd and disappeared for three years. I would not have seen him as an opener in the early days.
TheJediBrah
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I guess statistically "partnership average" isn't necessarily always the best when the 2 players have the best individual averages. This is one of the reasons Hayden & Langer had such an aura about them, because they were much better than their individual stats suggest (which are borderline ATG regardless). It was set up mostly in their first couple of years together when they had a ridiculously high proportion of 100 and even 200-run partnerships. I think it settled down a bit after that but obviously they would still be up there statistically.
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mr_mister
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
#17: Bruce Mitchell (60 points)
Lists featured on: 10/29
Top 5 finishes: 0
Highest finish: 8th (2)
Bruce Mitchell played 42 consecutive tests for his nation from 1929 to 1949 and truly flies under the radar when it comes to test openers - his record was really, really good.
He played 40 of his tests against top tier opposition, Australia and England and produced these results: an average of 31 from 10 tests against Australia and 54 from 30 tests against England.
His failures against Australia are what probably stopped him from reaching legend status and in two series against them couldn't produce a century. Grimmett, first with the help of Ironmonger then later with O'Reilly could certainly have been factors. England's big threats that he dealt successfully with included Tate, Larwood, Verity and Bedser after the war but on the whole it seems he was more suited to pace than spin. Like plenty of openers.
However - only 9 of his 20 innings against Australia were as an opener. For whatever reasons he played quite a few innings at 3 and even 4/5 against them. And wouldn't you know it his 2 highest scores against Australia (95 and 75) came as an opener.
So for those playing close attention this clearly leads to one conclusion - Mitchell's record as an opener was awesome. And it indeed it was. Using the criteria for min 30 innings, Mitchell's average as a test opener is the 2nd best ever behind only Herb Sutcliffe. Ahead of both Hobbs and Hutton - two relative peers. He averaged 57 as a test opener from 48 digs, quite a boost from his overall average of 48, which of course is still fantastic.
His record against England was awesome. He played six 5 test series against them and only in his first in 1929 at 20 did he not tear them up, hitting 251 runs in that encounter. For the remaining 5 series he cleared 450 runs every time. He averaged over 50 in all 5 of these and got at least 1 ton every time. The series where he got 2 was his best - and what a set of tons they were. In the final test of the 1947 series at the oval he cracked 120 in the first dig followed by 189* in the second. South Africa ended up 423/7 chasing 451 for victory when this 4 day test match concluded. What a joke! Robbed of an amazing result and amazing chance at immortality, this must have been some bloody performance from Bruce Mitchell. Oh and he was nearly 40 here.
Mitchell was the leading run scorer for his nation until re-admission in the '90s when Kirsten scraped past him, rather unconvincingly(at the time of the passing at least before Kirsten improved in the 2000s). Mitchell's omission from the 1949 test series against Australia caused a 'sensation'. Despite being 40 he had demonstrated in the prior years he was still absolutely the best man for the job and could have rectified his record against Australia. It was known at the time to be pretty shabby treatment for the man, who had given the best part of 20 years to his nation. He had the reputation as a defensive batsman which it seems was unfair as he had little in the way of support nearly his whole career so he had to dig in or his side could crumble. It's been speculated if he had been part of a stronger side he may have been able to bat more freely and really give Hobbs and Hutton a run for their money. Yes his career overlapped with Taylor and Nourse but he only had the help of one of them at a time and for a few years neither of them.
A true legend. He looks like an unassuming bloke in the picture too.
Lists featured on: 10/29
Top 5 finishes: 0
Highest finish: 8th (2)
Bruce Mitchell played 42 consecutive tests for his nation from 1929 to 1949 and truly flies under the radar when it comes to test openers - his record was really, really good.
He played 40 of his tests against top tier opposition, Australia and England and produced these results: an average of 31 from 10 tests against Australia and 54 from 30 tests against England.
His failures against Australia are what probably stopped him from reaching legend status and in two series against them couldn't produce a century. Grimmett, first with the help of Ironmonger then later with O'Reilly could certainly have been factors. England's big threats that he dealt successfully with included Tate, Larwood, Verity and Bedser after the war but on the whole it seems he was more suited to pace than spin. Like plenty of openers.
However - only 9 of his 20 innings against Australia were as an opener. For whatever reasons he played quite a few innings at 3 and even 4/5 against them. And wouldn't you know it his 2 highest scores against Australia (95 and 75) came as an opener.
So for those playing close attention this clearly leads to one conclusion - Mitchell's record as an opener was awesome. And it indeed it was. Using the criteria for min 30 innings, Mitchell's average as a test opener is the 2nd best ever behind only Herb Sutcliffe. Ahead of both Hobbs and Hutton - two relative peers. He averaged 57 as a test opener from 48 digs, quite a boost from his overall average of 48, which of course is still fantastic.
His record against England was awesome. He played six 5 test series against them and only in his first in 1929 at 20 did he not tear them up, hitting 251 runs in that encounter. For the remaining 5 series he cleared 450 runs every time. He averaged over 50 in all 5 of these and got at least 1 ton every time. The series where he got 2 was his best - and what a set of tons they were. In the final test of the 1947 series at the oval he cracked 120 in the first dig followed by 189* in the second. South Africa ended up 423/7 chasing 451 for victory when this 4 day test match concluded. What a joke! Robbed of an amazing result and amazing chance at immortality, this must have been some bloody performance from Bruce Mitchell. Oh and he was nearly 40 here.
Mitchell was the leading run scorer for his nation until re-admission in the '90s when Kirsten scraped past him, rather unconvincingly(at the time of the passing at least before Kirsten improved in the 2000s). Mitchell's omission from the 1949 test series against Australia caused a 'sensation'. Despite being 40 he had demonstrated in the prior years he was still absolutely the best man for the job and could have rectified his record against Australia. It was known at the time to be pretty shabby treatment for the man, who had given the best part of 20 years to his nation. He had the reputation as a defensive batsman which it seems was unfair as he had little in the way of support nearly his whole career so he had to dig in or his side could crumble. It's been speculated if he had been part of a stronger side he may have been able to bat more freely and really give Hobbs and Hutton a run for their money. Yes his career overlapped with Taylor and Nourse but he only had the help of one of them at a time and for a few years neither of them.
A true legend. He looks like an unassuming bloke in the picture too.
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Certainly happened a few times, although perhaps surprisingly all the big partnerships were Woodfull & Bradman (when Ponsford had his huge partnerships with Bradman in 1934, Brown was the other opener)
Here's the full list of Woodfull/Ponsford opening partnerships (runs they added, their scores, more details):
Code:
1: W 0 P 12 (2nd innings v E, Oval 1926) Ponsford out at 31-3: added 30 with Macartney, 0 with Bardsley
0: W 0 P 2 (1st innings v E, Brisbane 1928) Ponsford out at 7-2: added 7 with Kippax
6: W *30 P 6 (2nd innings ditto) Woodfull carried his bat through Australia's 66 all out
4: W 2 P 3 (1st innings v E, Nottingham 1930) Woodfull out at 6-2: added 2 with Kippax)
12: W 4 P 39 (2nd innings ditto) Ponsford out at 93-2: added 81 with Bradman
162: W 155 P 81 (1st innings v E, Lord's 1930) Woodfull out at 393-2: added 231 with Bradman
16: W *26 P 14 (2nd innings ditto) Woodfull batted through as Australia won by 7 wickets: added 1 with Bradman, 5 with Kippax, 50* with McCabe
106: W 54 P 83 (1st innings v E, Manchester 1930) Ponsford out at 184-3: added 32 with Bradman, 46 with Kippax
159: W 54 P 110 (1st innings v E, Oval 1930) Woodfull out at 190-2: added 31 with Bradman
50: W 83 P 24 (1st innings v WI, Melbourne 1931) Woodfull out at 206-2: added 156 with Bradman
7: W 22 P 7 (1st innings v WI, Sydney 1931) Woodfull out at 66-2: added 59 with Bradman
49: W 18 P 28 (2nd innings ditto) Ponsford out at 49-2 (added 0 with Bradman).
32: W 76 P 19 (1st innings v SA, Brisbane 1931) Woodfull out at 195-2: added 163 with Bradman
6: W 58 P 5 (1st innings v SA, Sydney 1931) Woodfull out at 143-2: added 137 with Bradman
11: W 7 P 7 (1st innings v SA, Melbourne 1931) Woodfull out at 16-2: added 5 with Bradman
54: W 161 P 34 (2nd innings ditto) Woodfull out at 408-3: added 274 with Bradman, 80 with Kippax
9: W 82 P 5 (1st innings v SA, Adelaide 1932) Woodfull out at 185-2: added 176 with Bradman
*73: W *37 P *27 (2nd innings ditto) Australia won by 10 wickets
22: W 7 P 32 (1st innings v E, Sydney 1932) Ponsford out at 65-2: added 43 with Fingleton
2: W 0 P 2 (2nd innings ditto) Woodfull out at 10-2: added 8 with Fingleton
77: W 26 P 53 (1st innings v E, Nottingham 1934) Woodfull out at 88-2: added 11 with Brown
2: W 2 P 5 (2nd innings ditto) Ponsford out at 32-2: added 30 with Brown
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stephen
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
England have had three excellent openers since the turn of the century. Trescothick, Strauss and Cook. Cook was the best of the lot of them. Like Ponting, I had him down to be the biggest run scorer in tests at one stage. He was what, 21 when he first played? That's ridiculously young and would have had to wait longer to play in other systems. Fair play to the English for identifying him so young and sticking with him.
The gap that he left in the English side when he left was huge. He's the first batsman since Lara to have emerged and made me feel like Australia didn't have any answers (Pujara being the only other one). That 2010/11 series was as good as any tourist could ever hope for and won an ashes series. Yet despite his obvious villainy, he always was both likeable and down to earth. Great player and I was glad he could make those big runs on his last tour here, which is more than I ever thought I'd say about an Englishman.
The gap that he left in the English side when he left was huge. He's the first batsman since Lara to have emerged and made me feel like Australia didn't have any answers (Pujara being the only other one). That 2010/11 series was as good as any tourist could ever hope for and won an ashes series. Yet despite his obvious villainy, he always was both likeable and down to earth. Great player and I was glad he could make those big runs on his last tour here, which is more than I ever thought I'd say about an Englishman.