Curtly Ambrose vs Dale Steyn

[Coronis]

This is the crazy part though.

Why is Knott chosen over Gilchrist then?

While I've never once seen Hadlee chosen over Marshall?

You and I will obviously disagree on this one. But Gilchrist actively doesn't make AT teams, because many prefer the better keeper. You're actively ignoring that point. Both of them really.

Up until recently you had Marshall as your bowler 1. But even at 2 he makes the team and as the team no. 1.
He also brings a combination of skillet and all round record unmatched in the game's history.

Last time we did a world XI, 3 years ago Bradman was given an automatic selection, Marshall was unanimous then Gilly was next in line. No one else came close to them with Hobbs then Tendulkar being closer than anyone else.

It was even suggested that all three of Sobers, Marshall and Gilchrist be also made automatic inclusions, another rooster added Hobbs to that list, though his inclusion was less unanimous.

But TJB made this interesting point.

Agree, given that you have 3 fast bowling spots Marshall should be a lock. Gilchrist probably should too, however there's a potential situation where someone might want to pick a "pure keeper" specialist for some reason.

And again, and it can't be stressed enough, it has happened. Wisden's no less, and an argument was even made of the Cricinfo's selection for same Knott.

Here's an entire video arguing the merits of both.

Your argument is that there are two bowlers close to Marshall, sure, but they aren't better or could fill the roles he does.

Not to add the value of the two positions are worlds apart.

Again, if you can only have 3 players from an AT XI to form the core of a team, and this is a direct question, is Gilchrist your 3rd and final choice?

Or is the world's greatest fast bowler who could bat a bit?

You can definitely make very good cases for McGrath and Hadlee over Marshall. I believe CW is possibly the place where Marshall is actually ranked consistently highest.

Yes, there are three fast bowling slots. That makes it much harder for someone ranked that highly to be excluded.

I do think Knott’s keeping is a bit better obviously. I do think Gilchrist’s keeping gets underrated at times, partly because of stuff Warne said about his state keeper, as well as directly following Healy, but mainly because of this inherent perception.

There seems to be an direct inverse correlation between batting and wicket keeping talent.

Which it may be an overall general trend that supports this, Gilchrist certainly bucks this. I personally believe based on all the footage I’ve seen the difference in their keeping is less than the difference in their batting (despite me also thinking Knott’s batting is a bit underrated).

Of course this is just my opinion. Personally, myself would be far happier having a bowling attack of “just” McGrath, Hadlee and Steyn/Ambrose/Imran/Wasim/Donald etc. than having Knott.

Yes, definitely Gilchrist.

 

[subshakerz]

Gilchrist is chosen because he is the best wicket keeper batsman at number 7 position.

If those extra few runs are worth more than picking a better wicker keeper, by that logic Hadlee should be picked ahead of Marshall as well.

By the same logic, should we pick someone like Jacques Kallis at number 4 ahead of pure batsmen like Sachin Tendulkar or Viv Richards?

Extra runs at 7 are worth more at 8, which are worth more at 9, etc etc.

 

[kyear2]

Gilchrist is chosen because he is the best wicket keeper batsman at number 7 position.

If those extra few runs are worth more than picking a better wicker keeper, by that logic Hadlee should be picked ahead of Marshall as well.

By the same logic, should we pick someone like Jacques Kallis at number 4 ahead of pure batsmen like Sachin Tendulkar or Viv Richards?

I am not arguing against Gilchrist's inclusion, I assume ever time knows that.

That being said you're arguing against your own position. Because Marshall and Tendulkar both make all of not most teams. So by that argument Knott should be the pick as well.

To go further, I never believe a few extra runs are worth more than a primary skill, especially is that primary skill is opening your attack.

Think it was @peterhrt who said that yes he believes that slip catching is more important than lower order batting and is crucial to a teams success, but under no circumstance is he going Kallis over Sachin be use you already have a 5th bowler in Sobers, and two AT slip fielders in Sobers and Viv and who ever may be your choice for opener between Barry or Sunny.
Sachin is the better batsman and that's the most important responsibility for that spot.

The argument that was very well explored on both sides, and the merits for either selection are valid.

I watched all of Gilly and he was great, he wasn't in the same star system as Healy with the gloves. How much that is worth is subjective and depends on perspective. Especially when there's a middle order of Bradman, Richards, Tendulkar and Sobers.

 

[subshakerz]

@DrWolverine bro if you haven't caught on yet you soon will that Kyears positions are full of contradictions and holes. For example, Knott doesn't make most teams pundits select, Gilly does.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

@DrWolverine bro if you haven't caught on yet you soon will that Kyears positions are full of contradictions and holes. For example, Knott doesn't make most teams pundits select, Gilly does.

As if yours are any better? So what if Gilchrist makes most teams, each and everyone of us is entitled to our opinions. And you have your own share of double talk when it suits your agenda.

 

[Coronis]

I will just ask you @kyear2, using your own ATG team, which team do you think is better?

Hutton
Richards
Bradman*
Richards
Tendulkar
Sobers
Knott+
Wasim
Marshall
Warne
McGrath

or

Hutton
Richards
Bradman*
Richards
Tendulkar
Sobers
Gilchrist+
Hadlee
Wasim
Warne
McGrath

 

[The Sean]

I will just ask you @kyear2, using your own ATG team, which team do you think is better?

Hutton
Richards
Bradman*
Richards
Sobers
Knott+
Wasim
Marshall
Warne
McGrath

or

Hutton
Richards
Bradman*
Richards
Tendulkar
Sobers
Gilchrist+
Hadlee
Wasim
Warne
McGrath

Well, the first team only has ten players so I reckon you'd have to back the second lot.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

I am not arguing against Gilchrist's inclusion, I assume ever time knows that.

That being said you're arguing against your own position. Because Marshall and Tendulkar both make all of not most teams. So by that argument Knott should be the pick as well.

To go further, I never believe a few extra runs are worth more than a primary skill, especially is that primary skill is opening your attack.

Think it was @peterhrt who said that yes he believes that slip catching is more important than lower order batting and is crucial to a teams success, but under no circumstance is he going Kallis over Sachin be use you already have a 5th bowler in Sobers, and two AT slip fielders in Sobers and Viv and who ever may be your choice for opener between Barry or Sunny.
Sachin is the better batsman and that's the most important responsibility for that spot.

The argument that was very well explored on both sides, and the merits for either selection are valid.

I watched all of Gilly and he was great, he wasn't in the same star system as Healy with the gloves. How much that is worth is subjective and depends on perspective. Especially when there's a middle order of Bradman, Richards, Tendulkar and Sobers.

Don't worry buddy, I get what you're saying. I personally include Gilchrist in my team but Knott isn't unreasonable. Who knows, maybe that one m catch or stumping Gilchrist is more likely to miss ends up costing more in a hypothetical match up.

 

[Coronis]

Well, the first team only has ten players so I reckon you'd have to back the second lot.

Haha fixed - I noticed when I looked back over the post he was missing in the second team but missed him in the first

 

[OverratedSanity]

Gilchrist is one of only three players who I consider a lock for a selection in an ATG XI. He was a complete freak who combined great batting with great keeping in a way literally no one in the history of cricket has. Guys like Marshall/Sachin/Viv may be greater cricketers but the other contenders for their spot are definitely close to them.

 

[Coronis]

Gilchrist is one of only three players who I consider a lock for a selection in an ATG XI. He was a complete freak who combined great keeping with great keeping in a way literally no one in the history of cricket has. Guys like Marshall/Sachin/Viv may be greater cricketers but the other contenders for their spot are definitely close to them.

Very impressive of him.

 

[sayon basak]

This is the crazy part though.

Why is Knott chosen over Gilchrist then?

While I've never once seen Hadlee chosen over Marshall?

You and I will obviously disagree on this one. But Gilchrist actively doesn't make AT teams, because many prefer the better keeper. You're actively ignoring that point. Both of them really.

Up until recently you had Marshall as your bowler 1. But even at 2 he makes the team and as the team no. 1.
He also brings a combination of skillet and all round record unmatched in the game's history.

Last time we did a world XI, 3 years ago Bradman was given an automatic selection, Marshall was unanimous then Gilly was next in line. No one else came close to them with Hobbs then Tendulkar being closer than anyone else.

It was even suggested that all three of Sobers, Marshall and Gilchrist be also made automatic inclusions, another rooster added Hobbs to that list, though his inclusion was less unanimous.

But TJB made this interesting point.

Agree, given that you have 3 fast bowling spots Marshall should be a lock. Gilchrist probably should too, however there's a potential situation where someone might want to pick a "pure keeper" specialist for some reason.

And again, and it can't be stressed enough, it has happened. Wisden's no less, and an argument was even made of the Cricinfo's selection for same Knott.

Here's an entire video arguing the merits of both.

Your argument is that there are two bowlers close to Marshall, sure, but they aren't better or could fill the roles he does.

Not to add the value of the two positions are worlds apart.

Again, if you can only have 3 players from an AT XI to form the core of a team, and this is a direct question, is Gilchrist your 3rd and final choice?

Or is the world's greatest fast bowler who could bat a bit?

Do not understand why a discussion between Kimber and Bumble should be authoritative. They do come up with nonsense at times.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Seriously though, I think his keeping gets extremely underrated these days. He was legitimately fantastic and one of the best i've seen with the gloves in my time of watching cricket. There's arguably not been more than 1-2 keepers better than him post 2000.

 

[Coronis]

Sean and Coronis really are about to become a tag team named Technicality bros

Well, the first team only has ten players so I reckon you'd have to back the second lot.

Very impressive of him.

@Johan the predictor

 

[OverratedSanity]

Do not understand why a discussion between Kimber and Bumble should be authoritative. They do come up with nonsense at times.

Kimber actually said in a video that Andy ****ing flower was better with the gloves than Gilchrist. I can't think of many people with less credibility on this subject.

 

[Coronis]

Kimber actually said in a video that Andy ****ing flower was better with the gloves than Gilchrist. I can't think of many people with less credibility on this subject.

@Prince EWS thoughts?

 

[DrWolverine]

Kimber actually said in a video that Andy ****ing flower was better with the gloves than Gilchrist. I can't think of many people with less credibility on this subject.

Andy Flower played at number 4/5.

So even if he was just as good, no one is picking him at that position in an all time great team.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

You can definitely make very good cases for McGrath and Hadlee over Marshall. I believe CW is possibly the place where Marshall is actually ranked consistently highest.

Yes, there are three fast bowling slots. That makes it much harder for someone ranked that highly to be excluded.

I do think Knott’s keeping is a bit better obviously. I do think Gilchrist’s keeping gets underrated at times, partly because of stuff Warne said about his state keeper, as well as directly following Healy, but mainly because of this inherent perception.



Which it may be an overall general trend that supports this, Gilchrist certainly bucks this. I personally believe based on all the footage I’ve seen the difference in their keeping is less than the difference in their batting (despite me also thinking Knott’s batting is a bit underrated).

Of course this is just my opinion. Personally, myself would be far happier having a bowling attack of “just” McGrath, Hadlee and Steyn/Ambrose/Imran/Wasim/Donald etc. than having Knott.

Yes, definitely Gilchrist.

Pardon my ignorance but if McGrath and Marshall are just about even, why not pick him over McGrath seeing that he's significantly better with the bat.

 

[Prince EWS]

@Prince EWS thoughts?

I have seen the video months ago. I respect Kimber generally but lost all respect for him on the topic when I saw it. He paused when he was asked too, I don't think he'd ever thought about it properly and chose to say that to launch into a discussion about batting roles.

 

[Johan]

@Johan the predictor

Everything is proceeding exactly as I have foreseen.