Can anyone tell me when...

[Dick Rockett]

Proven internationals... just how many Kiwi bowlers are proven Test-class bowlers, then?
Cairns had a last-hurrah and otherwise he hasn't come near his Trent Bridge figures since the injury he suffered in Christchurch last England series; Nash, O'Connor, Allott and Doull never lived-up to their potential before injury cut short their careers. Tuffey, Martin and Oram all average in the 30s and Butler higher still.
Are there any decent Kiwi bowlers ATM?

Sure there are/were. Nash and Doull both played well up to their potential. Unfortunately by the time they had matured into good bowlers they were older and their bodies let them down. O'Connor was only ever an OK bowler. Allott was an amazing one-day bowler, but couldn't move the red ball and as such bombed in tests. Again, just as he was becoming an excellent bowler, he broke down.

As for the current crop, I think it's a bit early to be making judgements on their ability by pointing at their 30+ averages. None have played that many tests. Hadlee's average wasn't flash in his early career either.

Martin has only just returned after years in obscurity. He was shite before, now he's not. Give him a chance.

Tuffey's been carrying an injury since last year's Indian tour. Before that his average was 27-ish. IMO his injury is responsible for his subsequent rise in average. Anyone who's seen him in full flight can see what a class act he is.

Oram needs to sort out some variation for tests, but there's nothing wrong with his ODI bowling.

Butler was unbelievably rubbish, but even I can see he's slowly improving - and trust me, I'm no fan of his.

And S.E. Bond - get better you nonce!

 

[Richard]

Sure..... I'm sure thats what the Pakistan team thinks particually brcause he took six wickets in the second test match at Wellington against them

And despite the fact they hammered him all over everywhere in the other 3 innings?

 

[Richard]

Still can't explain how Hayden, who is "easy to dismiss" is averaging 58 in Tests though, can you?

Yes, I just did - because he hasn't had his weakness bowled at in recent years.
Unlike he did in the preceding years.

 

[Richard]

What do you think of James Franklin?

Useless one-day bowler, might have something to offer in the Test-matches, but only might.
Good start to his Test-career, put it that way. Puzzling that some other bowlers (eg Martin, however successful it proved for the first 2 matches) got recalls ahead of him.
Hopefully he'll get a run in the Test-side and we'll see for certain whether he's got what it takes. I definately have my doubts over his accuracy.

 

[Richard]

Richard thinks if McCullum misses at a ball, it is likely that most of the batsmen in the world would miss it as well. McCullum's technique against the new ball early in his innings is shaky, and god knows why Richard rates him as one of the best in the world, even though MCullum isn't even the Top 3 batsmen in NZ.

Eh? When the hell have I said McCullum is one of the best batsmen in The World?

 

[marc71178]

So in this age of increasing video technology to find weaknesses in batsmen and their techniques, his weakness has gone untested, yet in previous times this weakness was exploited?

Could the upsurge possibly be anything to do with Hayden sorting this out to a degree?

An average of 58 does not suggest to me that this player is easy to dismiss!

 

[Richard]

Tuffey's been carrying an injury since last year's Indian tour. Before that his average was 27-ish. IMO his injury is responsible for his subsequent rise in average. Anyone who's seen him in full flight can see what a class act he is.

I've seen him in full-flight, at Auckland in 2001\02. No doubts he exploited the conditions devestatingly there.
However the pattern for most of his career, injured or not, has been to be devestating on seamers (mostly when he's played at home the pitches have seamed) and totally anodyne on pitches with no seam. Last winter it seems New Zealand curators caught the flat-wicket bug that's been doing the rounds in recent years.
And hopefully Tuffey's recent longish - and rather strange - break from playing might have helped him get over this peculiarly long-term injury.

 

[Richard]

So in this age of increasing video technology to find weaknesses in batsmen and their techniques, his weakness has gone untested, yet in previous times this weakness was exploited?

Could the upsurge possibly be anything to do with Hayden sorting this out to a degree?

An average of 58 does not suggest to me that this player is easy to dismiss!

I know, because you place far too much emphasis on statistics and not enough on what you see.
I'll be amazed if coaches and bowlers don't know about the weakness - exploiting it is another matter.

 

[marc71178]

Yet you said it was simple.

You need to make your mind up.

 

[marc71178]

I know, because you place far too much emphasis on statistics and not enough on what you see.

At the end of the day, what wins a game - is it runs on the board, or is it perceived weaknesses?

 

[Langeveldt]

At the end of the day, what wins a game - is it runs on the board, or is it perceived weaknesses?

Agreed totally....

 

[Richard]

At the end of the day, what wins a game - is it runs on the board, or is it perceived weaknesses?

Perceived weakness cuts down on the runs on the board if you exploit the perception to stop runs being put on the board.

 

[Richard]

Yet you said it was simple.

You need to make your mind up.

Just because bowlers haven't done it doesn't mean it is any less simple.

 

[Craig]

Useless one-day bowler, might have something to offer in the Test-matches, but only might.
Good start to his Test-career, put it that way. Puzzling that some other bowlers (eg Martin, however successful it proved for the first 2 matches) got recalls ahead of him.
Hopefully he'll get a run in the Test-side and we'll see for certain whether he's got what it takes. I definately have my doubts over his accuracy.

Well he was one of the best bowlers in last season's State Championship and is a middle order batsman for Wellington (around 6 or 7), and it worked, Wellington won it last time around.

If Vettori is fit then he should slot in and in my mind I don't see a spot for him.

 

[Dick Rockett]

However the pattern for most of his career, injured or not, has been to be devestating on seamers (mostly when he's played at home the pitches have seamed) and totally anodyne on pitches with no seam.

You clearly didn't follow last years tour to India. Tuffey averaged 28 in a series where the next best was Kumble at 37.

This in a series where India posted 500/5 dec, 209/6 dec, 424, & 136/4 dec. New Zealand posted 340, 272/6, & 630/6 dec.

In the second test only 20 wickets fell. Tuffey took 7 of those: 4/80 & 3/30.

As much as I enjoyed the flood of runs from Kiwi bats on that tour, I understood that it had a lot to do with flat and unresponsive pitches. I strongly suspect the effort in India is what injured Tuffey and is responsible for his subsequent lack of form.

 

[marc71178]

Perceived weakness cuts down on the runs on the board if you exploit the perception to stop runs being put on the board.

So how does Hayden average 58 if it's so easy to get him out?

A perceived weakness doesn't win games or do anything. If it were as simple as you claim, he wouldn't have such an average and look likely to maintain or inprove on it every time he bats.

 

[marc71178]

Just because bowlers haven't done it doesn't mean it is any less simple.

If it's simple, people can do it.

Nobody has done it, so how can it be simple?

 

[Mister Wright]

What is it going to take for people to give Hayden some credit? People said he had a weakness against spin bowling, so he gets Kevin Mitchell Jnr to prepare Indian like pitches at Alan Border field and gets Queensland's up and coming spinners to bowl at him. He also funds his own trip to train in India before the Indian tour of 2001. He then averages 100+ on that tour and is now probably one of the best players of spin in world cricket. Very early in his career he was prone to being caught w/k or slip from out swinging deliveries due to the fact he played away from his body (much like Elliot) but after getting dropped from the Australian team he worked very hard with John Buccanan on playing the line of the ball, and you will see now that he takes a very large step outside off stump and gets his head in line with the ball (which is what you are supposed to do). Very rarely does he now get caught at slip early in his innings, but even the best get low scores and sometimes don't move their feet. It is time for Richard and others to just accept the fact that Hayden is a very hard worker at his game and will go down as one of the greats, if not the greatest opener of all time.

I for one, will be putting money on Hayden to be top runscorer come Ashes 2005.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

What is it going to take for people to give Hayden some credit? People said he had a weakness against spin bowling, so he gets Kevin Mitchell Jnr to prepare Indian like pitches at Alan Border field and gets Queensland's up and coming spinners to bowl at him. He also funds his own trip to train in India before the Indian tour of 2001. He then averages 100+ on that tour and is now probably one of the best players of spin in world cricket. Very early in his career he was prone to being caught w/k or slip from out swinging deliveries due to the fact he played away from his body (much like Elliot) but after getting dropped from the Australian team he worked very hard with John Buccanan on playing the line of the ball, and you will see now that he takes a very large step outside off stump and gets his head in line with the ball (which is what you are supposed to do). Very rarely does he now get caught at slip early in his innings, but even the best get low scores and sometimes don't move their feet. It is time for Richard and others to just accept the fact that Hayden is a very hard worker at his game and will go down as one of the greats, if not the greatest opener of all time.

I for one, will be putting money on Hayden to be top runscorer come Ashes 2005.

All well stated and I support your point fully, except my money's on Ponting.

 

[Langeveldt]

IMO Hayden is one of the most under rated players of today.. I reckon he is the second or third best batsman in international cricket.. True he is rated, but not nearly as highly...