Can anyone tell me when...

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Indeed. Now that I see the folly of my comment Hayden's muppet status is all the more clear. I thank thee Marc of England.

 

[Richard]

Saggers may murder Langer, who struggles with the ball swinging into him - see AA, Australia vs India 03/04.

Hayden, meanwhile, murders most inswing but struggles against outswingers, so I imagine he would eat Saggers for breakfast.

I'm very confident he'd cause both of them big problems.
Hayden has a very pronounced weakness against inswing - see Gough, Caddick and Tudor, England vs Australia, 2001.
Anyone, meanwhile, will usually struggle against decent outswingers but most bowlers find it that much harder to bowl outswingers to the left-handers.

 

[Richard]

Which explains his Test average being in excess of 50 then.

If only it were that simple...

No, the bowlers he's faced explain that.

 

[wpdavid]

I'm very confident he'd cause both of them big problems.
Hayden has a very pronounced weakness against inswing - see Gough, Caddick and Tudor, England vs Australia, 2001.
Anyone, meanwhile, will usually struggle against decent outswingers but most bowlers find it that much harder to bowl outswingers to the left-handers.

Looking at Hayden's 8 dismissals in England in 2001, he was out LBW to Tudor twice and Caddick once, which may have been down in inswing. Other than that, Caddick had him caught by Butcher, which probably wasn't and Gough didn't get him at all. He was also dismissed by Mullally (ct behind), Giles & Tufnell.

The other factor is how much his performance has improved - in tests since that series, he's averaging about 70. Obviously playing Zim & Bang has helped, but it's hard to believe that no-one from NZ, SA, SL or India could swing the ball into him. Hoggard did during 2002/03, although not with any success IIRC.

 

[marc71178]

David, it's another of the King's proclamations that we all have to nod and accept because he clearly knows so much more than the rest of us.

If it were so simple that a bowler such as Saggers (who wouldn't get near the NZ side IMO) can do it, then why can't proven internationals (again thinking of the Kiwis and their high levels of preparation)

 

[Langeveldt]

I wonder if Rich is trying to stimulate some discussion by playing devils advocate...

 

[PY]

David, it's another of the King's proclamations that we all have to nod and accept because he clearly knows so much more than the rest of us.

He's allowed his opinion though.......

 

[Richard]

Looking at Hayden's 8 dismissals in England in 2001, he was out LBW to Tudor twice and Caddick once, which may have been down in inswing. Other than that, Caddick had him caught by Butcher, which probably wasn't and Gough didn't get him at all. He was also dismissed by Mullally (ct behind), Giles & Tufnell.

The other factor is how much his performance has improved - in tests since that series, he's averaging about 70. Obviously playing Zim & Bang has helped, but it's hard to believe that no-one from NZ, SA, SL or India could swing the ball into him. Hoggard did during 2002/03, although not with any success IIRC.

Both of the Tudor lbws at Trent Bridge were down to big nip-backers (though both did, to be fair, pitch outside leg) and the Caddick one in the Headingley first-innings certainly was, so much so that Hayden fell over and tried to avoid Venkat's gaze.
The Caddick c Butcher was down to an edge off an away-seamer (the Caddick dropped Ward was down to a cut to point), both the caughts off the left-arm seamers were off ambitious strokes, though White's was a miraculous catch. Trescothick's wasn't bad, either, a flat sweep. The Mullally caught-behind was due to playing at a ball that could have been left and playing the wrong line.
Very few away-swing-bowlers (to the right-hander) open the bowling these days: certainly Cairns, Nash, Tuffey and Bond aren't, and none had any real success in Australia. Pollock isn't a swing bowler at all and Donald was hopelessly out of form that Test-series. All of his success against Pakistan was due to dropped catches. Hoggard didn't swing the ball into Hayden in either of the first 2 Tests of 2002\03, and he did in the last, and dismissed him lbw. None of the other England bowlers who opened are particularly good swing bowlers. Certainly none of the Bangladesh or Zimbabwe bowlers are. And neither are any of India's excuses for seamers. Sri Lanka's one decent seamer isn't much of an inswing bowler with a new-ball either.
So no, Hayden hasn't faced much inswing since 2001. When he has, and also when the ball has steepled on him early on, he's been trapped lbw or fallen into the leg-trap actually quite a bit.

 

[Richard]

I wonder if Rich is trying to stimulate some discussion by playing devils advocate...

Well according to marc and an occasional other that is all I ever do.

 

[Richard]

David, it's another of the King's proclamations that we all have to nod and accept because he clearly knows so much more than the rest of us.

If it were so simple that a bowler such as Saggers (who wouldn't get near the NZ side IMO) can do it, then why can't proven internationals (again thinking of the Kiwis and their high levels of preparation)

Proven internationals... just how many Kiwi bowlers are proven Test-class bowlers, then?
Cairns had a last-hurrah and otherwise he hasn't come near his Trent Bridge figures since the injury he suffered in Christchurch last England series; Nash, O'Connor, Allott and Doull never lived-up to their potential before injury cut short their careers. Tuffey, Martin and Oram all average in the 30s and Butler higher still.
Are there any decent Kiwi bowlers ATM?

 

[Langeveldt]

Are there any decent Kiwi bowlers ATM?

Shane Bond - injured !

Im amazed that Ian Butler has rubbish stats.. He looks really impressive.. Shame he hasnt had the success...

 

[Langeveldt]

Well according to marc and an occasional other that is all I ever do.

Yeh but if they are ginger they don't count...

 

[Richard]

To be fair I don't ever remember Neil accusing me of that.
He has disagreed with my chance-theorems and the like, but I don't think he has ever said I say things just to be different.

 

[Richard]

Shane Bond - injured !

Im amazed that Ian Butler has rubbish stats.. He looks really impressive.. Shame he hasnt had the success...

To be fair Butler bowled OK in his NW Series games.
But if you'd seen him previously you'd not be amazed - in his career before this latest phase, he really was one of the worst bowlers you'll ever see.
No-balls everywhere, spraying the ball all over the shop - any batsman with any sense would lick their lips upon seeing his name on the sheet. As long as they weren't Kiwi batsmen, of course.

 

[Richard Rash]

Sure..... I'm sure thats what the Pakistan team thinks particually brcause he took six wickets in the second test match at Wellington against them

 

[marc71178]

Still can't explain how Hayden, who is "easy to dismiss" is averaging 58 in Tests though, can you?

 

[Mingster]

Richard thinks if McCullum misses at a ball, it is likely that most of the batsmen in the world would miss it as well. McCullum's technique against the new ball early in his innings is shaky, and god knows why Richard rates him as one of the best in the world, even though MCullum isn't even the Top 3 batsmen in NZ.

 

[tooextracool]

I'm very confident he'd cause both of them big problems.
Hayden has a very pronounced weakness against inswing - see Gough, Caddick and Tudor, England vs Australia, 2001.
Anyone, meanwhile, will usually struggle against decent outswingers but most bowlers find it that much harder to bowl outswingers to the left-handers.

actually hayden has problems against outswing......tries to close the fact off the bat too early. gough never actually got him out in that series while caddick only got him out twice. tudor mind you is an outswing bowler(to the right handers) and he got him out twice in the same match. regardless i agree with you that hayden isnt a very good player on english wickets(or any seaming wickets for that matter) and the fact that he got a start in almost every innings on that tour shows that he was definetly not out of form.

 

[tooextracool]

Richard thinks if McCullum misses at a ball, it is likely that most of the batsmen in the world would miss it as well. McCullum's technique against the new ball early in his innings is shaky, and god knows why Richard rates him as one of the best in the world, even though MCullum isn't even the Top 3 batsmen in NZ.

although he is a very good test batsman....technically sound and the way in which he forces the bowler to pitch the ball up to him is quite brilliant. the only real weakness that he has is with the ball coming into him......

 

[Craig]

To be fair Butler bowled OK in his NW Series games.
But if you'd seen him previously you'd not be amazed - in his career before this latest phase, he really was one of the worst bowlers you'll ever see.
No-balls everywhere, spraying the ball all over the shop - any batsman with any sense would lick their lips upon seeing his name on the sheet. As long as they weren't Kiwi batsmen, of course.

What do you think of James Franklin?