Building a 'Peak XI'

[capt_Luffy]

Viv’s peak is easily better than Smith’s because of his more attacking way of playing, and because of the insanely flat surfaces at home Smith. 74.7 for a stretch from 1976-81(insane SR, and the major performer key victories in Aus, Eng, Pak against some great bowlers). Insane peak considering the era and record maintained across conditions. 3400 runs in 32 matches, 12 hundreds

2017 India, best performance by any batsman in turning Indian tracks, ever.
2019 England, with respect to 1976 Viv, was the best performance by any batsman in England after 1930 Don.
Already mastered and played several great innings in bouncy Australian pitches.
Viv's SR is great and all, but Smith performed in more varied conditions for me. It's very close and NO WAY a swipe for Viv.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

2017 India, best performance by any batsman in turning Indian tracks, ever.
2019 England, with respect to 1976 Viv, was the best performance by any batsman in England after 1930 Don.
Already mastered and played several great innings in bouncy Australian pitches.
Viv's SR is great and all, but Smith performed in more varied conditions for me. It's very close and NO WAY a swipe for Viv.

Smith had flat conditions at home unlike Viv. There were more or less no bouncy pitches he had to deal with at home. Viv didn’t have this luxury. And Viv’s performance in 1976 England is better than Smith in 2019, cause he faced a better attack overall(Underwood, Snow, Willis etc compared to Smith who only faced Anderson in one test) and scored more runs in the same amount of tests. Viv performed in more varied conditions also since he conquered the bouncy pitches in Aus in 1979, reverse swing and spin in Pak in 1980(and dominated the quartet on some spin friendly wickets earlier in WI as well), and lateral movement in England in 1976. Smith had flat pitches at home. 1979 Aus: the best batting performance by a visitor in Aus atleast in the modern cricketing era, 1976 Eng: best since Bradman(and very slightly better than Smith 2019), and 1980 Pak: one of the best tours in Pak for any bat(don’t think anyone conquered peak Imran like that). Viv also didn’t have the luxury of playing a minnow like Smith did(who dominated weak WI attacks like anything on flat pitches at home).

 

[Coronis]

Smith had flat conditions at home unlike Viv. There were more or less no bouncy pitches he had to deal with at home. Viv didn’t have this luxury. And Viv’s performance in 1976 England is better than Smith in 2019, cause he faced a better attack overall(Underwood, Snow, Willis etc compared to Smith who only faced Anderson in one test) and scored more runs in the same amount of tests. Viv performed in more varied conditions also since he conquered the bouncy pitches in Aus in 1979, reverse swing and spin in Pak in 1980(and dominated the quartet on some spin friendly wickets earlier in WI as well), and lateral movement in England in 1976. Smith had flat pitches at home. 1979 Aus: the best batting performance by a visitor in Aus atleast in the modern cricketing era, 1976 Eng: best since Bradman(and very slightly better than Smith 2019), and 1980 Pak: one of the best tours in Pak for any bat(don’t think anyone conquered peak Imran like that). Viv also didn’t have the luxury of playing a minnow like Smith did(who dominated weak WI attacks like anything on flat pitches at home).

I forgot Archer and Broad were in horrible form that tour.

Not that Viv’s England tour was not also great, but lets not forget how outstanding Smith was in that series. Both only played 4/5 matches (nice coincidence that one), that 76 series was in general a much higher scoring one. The next best batsmen on his team scored less than half his runs, and he scored more tons than the rest of his combined teammates, as well as the same amount of tons as the whole English team.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

I forgot Archer and Broad were in horrible form that tour.

Not that Viv’s England tour was not also great, but lets not forget how outstanding Smith was in that series. Both only played 4/5 matches (nice coincidence that one), that 76 series was in general a much higher scoring one. The next best batsmen on his team scored less than half his runs, and he scored more tons than the rest of his combined teammates, as well as the same amount of tons as the whole English team.

I agree completely, and consider both the best tours to England bar Bradman. Viv also a lot more runs than most batsmen, but Viv’s teammates such as Greenidge and Fredericks are way more competent in England than Smith’s teammates such as David Warner. I would rate Viv very very marginal more cause I think with Snow, Underwood, Willis, he faced a more rounded attack than Smith faced, and because he was more destructive. But I wouldn’t mind anyone going the other way as well

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

And in general the series was high scoring from WI’s point of view only, England struggled a lot and Viv was the prime reason for his team’s big scores

 

[capt_Luffy]

And in general the series was high scoring from WI’s point of view only, England struggled a lot and Viv was the prime reason for his team’s big scores

England struggled more due to Roberts and Holding running through the English lineups. I won't object to anyone rating Viv's peak higher; but it's definitely very close.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

England struggled more due to Roberts and Holding running through the English lineups.

Prime Holding was a sight to behold. Him and Viv in their prime that series, what wouldn’t I give to watch that in real time

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

England struggled more due to Roberts and Holding running through the English lineups. I won't object to anyone rating Viv's peak higher; but it's definitely very close.

For me it’s clear. Viv didn’t have poor attacks to bash on flat wickets. Although Smith’s peak is still one of the best in cricket history. But Viv’s is the best in cricket history bar Bradman, the quality of attacks faced on a default basis and the way he took them down

 

[capt_Luffy]

For me it’s clear. Viv didn’t have poor attacks to bash on flat wickets. Although Smith’s peak is still one of the best in cricket history. But Viv’s is the best in cricket history bar Bradman, the quality of attacks faced on a default basis and the way he took them down

Then let's agree to disagree. Smith is ahead for me slightly.

 

[Slifer]

Anyways, Viv smote Willis, Underwood, and Snow. Then Lillee, Thommo, and Mallett. And Imran, Qadir, Safraz and Qasim. And in the case of Pakistan he's the only one on either team to make runs and all those series were away. Amazing peak!!!

 

[number11]

Interesting thread. I think judging players at their peaks (with a fair sample size of 20+ tests, or a 5 year period) is the best way of determining where each player stands.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Viv’s peak is easily better than Smith’s because of his more attacking way of playing, and because of the insanely flat surfaces at home Smith. 74.7 for a stretch from 1976-81(insane SR, and the major performer key victories in Aus, Eng, Pak against some great bowlers). Insane peak considering the era and record maintained across conditions. 3400 runs in 32 matches, 12 hundreds

Lol what a load of ****e, no ones peak is "easily" better than Smiths.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

Lol what a load of ****e, no ones peak is "easily" better than Smiths.

Ya that easily was just a brain fade and hyperbole from my part(happens after 2 hours of sleep in 2 days).

 

[subshakerz]

Lol what a load of ****e, no ones peak is "easily" better than Smiths.

They are both averaging in the 70s in their peaks, but Viv played against a whole other level of pitches and pace bowlers. So yeah I think it's an easy call.

 

[smash84]

They are both averaging in the 70s in their peaks, but Viv played against a whole other level of pitches and pace bowlers. So yeah I think it's an easy call.

What? Viv had plenty of flat pitches in his era too.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

What? Viv had plenty of flat pitches in his era too.

I don’t think so. And what’s a bigger factor is that there was no minnow for Richards to dominate, like Smith did against horrid WI attacks

 

[subshakerz]

What? Viv had plenty of flat pitches in his era too.

Sure but it's a matter of degrees. Viv didn't have really poor attacks though in his peak and the number of flat pitches were relatively less than the pancakes Smith had at home.

Smith had some great series against top bowling in his peak, no doubt. But a large part of his runscoring was piling it on against poor WI, Ind and Pak attacks at home.

 

[subshakerz]

I don’t think so. And what’s a bigger factor is that there was no minnow for Richards to dominate, like Smith did against horrid WI attacks

Just to drive this home, Smith averaged well over 100 against poor attacks against India at home, WI twice home and away and Pak at home in his peak.

Comparatively, he didn't score nearly as much against the best attack SA home and away during that time, averaging in the 40s.

 

[subshakerz]

Just to make it clearer, this is breakdown of Viv's peak:

76 series vs Aus: Lloyd as a masterstroke decides to take a struggling Viv mid-series and open with him to give him some confidence, and he ends the series with a 90 and hundred against Lillee and Thommo, starting his golden run.

76 against England: ATG series, can argue some flat pitches here but a good attack English attack.

76 vs Pak: Poor series albeit against a mid Pak attack with a raw Imran.

76 vs India at home: Great series against the best spinners of the era, albeit at home.

Break for WSC where he scores very well.

78 vs Aus at home: Only a couple of uneventful cameo innings against a Packer depleted Aus attack.

79/80 vs Aus: ATG series against Lillee et al

80 vs Eng: Great away series against top England attack with peak Botham.

80/81 vs Pak: Near ATG away series against peak Imran and Qadir

81 vs Eng: Another great home series against the same quality Eng bowling attack.

So from the above, there wasn't any lining his pockets with poor attacks, pretty much all of his major runscoring were against quality bowling.

Compared this to Smith and the difference is obvious.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

Just to make it clearer, this is breakdown of Viv's peak:

76 series vs Aus: Lloyd as a masterstroke decides to take a struggling Viv mid-series and open with him to give him some confidence, and he ends the series with a 90 and hundred against Lillee and Thommo, starting his golden run.

76 against England: ATG series, can argue some flat pitches here but a good attack English attack.

76 vs Pak: Poor series albeit against a mid Pak attack with a raw Imran.

76 vs India at home: Great series against the best spinners of the era, albeit at home.

Break for WSC where he scores very well.

78 vs Aus at home: Only a couple of uneventful cameo innings against a Packer depleted Aus attack.

79/80 vs Aus: ATG series against Lillee et al

80 vs Eng: Great away series against top England attack with peak Botham.

80/81 vs Pak: Near ATG away series against peak Imran and Qadir

81 vs Eng: Another great home series against the same quality Eng bowling attack.

So from the above, there wasn't any lining his pockets with poor attacks, pretty much all of his major runscoring were against quality bowling.

Compared this to Smith and the difference is obvious.

The 76 Eng series attack is underrated. They had Underwood, Snow, Willis etc