Brian Lara vs Ricky Ponting (against pace bowling)

[subshakerz]

Gayle was solid towards the end of Lara's career and outperformed him in some big series (against the really good England attack in 04/05). Sarwan was a decent player too. WI bowling was worse than their batting at the time.

Yeah the idea that WI was weak because of batting is not true.

 

[subshakerz]

also

Please stop overrating Shoaib ffs

Shoaib in the 2000s when he was on the field was worldclass.

 

[Johan]

Shoaib in the 2000s when he was on the field was worldclass.

for two years

 

[subshakerz]

for two years

No from 2002 to 2007. Basically since Wasim retired and he took the new ball.

 

[DrWolverine]

2002-2006 : This was the period after Donald/Walsh/Akram retired till McGrath’s retirement.

 

[Johan]

No from 2002 to 2007. Basically since Wasim retired and he took the new ball.

2002-2003 = 72 @ 15, 30 strike rate

2004-2007 = 60 @ 30, 50 strike rate

 

[Prince EWS]

Yeah the idea that WI was weak because of batting is not true.

Batting averages of top 6 batsmen in the 2000s until Lara's retirement (Dec 2006):

Australia - 50.55
India - 44.32
South Africa - 43.76
Pakistan - 42.10
Sri Lanka - 41.39
England - 39.78
West Indies - 36.57
New Zealand - 34.67
Zimbabwe - 28.72
Bangladesh - 22.85

Arguably worse than NZ given the difference in home pitches too - they were three runs below them away (35 vs 32).

 

[pardus]

One thing many don't says, Lara was once averaging 60+ in 90s but by the end of 90s his career average drops to 50 (even lower)
He maintained marnus lebuschagne level consistency.

Lara's career trend was unlike most great's. Very diffficult to compare his career with anyone else's. He was still the best batsman of his side when he retired (or was forced to retire) in 2007.

Very unusually, he had a long 4.5 year slump in the middle of his career, very specifically starting from 1996-97 Aus Series to 2000-01 home series against South Africa, during which he averaged in the 30s. For 18 months at the end of this 4.5 year period, he had chronic hamstring issues and was in fact unfit for both Aus 2000-01 series as well as home series against South Africa later in 2001 but played in them because he found the challenge irresistible.

It wasn't like he was only failing against great pace attacks during this 4.5 year low time. His averages against Sri Lanka and England, during this time were 30 and 38.

His slump, in my opinion, was partly his own fault. He rarely had a poor series until almost 1997, tasted tremendous success in a short time, and it got to his head. He sort of became lazy and consequently developed fitness issues.

To add to that, in 1998, the ugly spat between West Indies board (including then team manager Clive Lloyd and coach Malcolm Marshall) on one side, and senior players (Lara, Hooper, Ambrose, Walsh etc.) on the other.
Ambrose gives a lot of details about this in his book. In his book, Ambrose was pretty scathing on Clive Lloyd and even Marshall, on this issue. This was just before the South Africa tour of 98. Senior players including Ambrose & Lara were dead against going on that tour until several player issues were resolved by the Board, but were arm-twisted in going to the tour (paraphrasing Ambrose here).

From Ambrose's book, that period of late 90s was a very torrid time for West Indies cricket and it clearly reflected on the field.

In any case, Lara finally reset his career starting with the Sri Lanka tour in 2001. He focused on his fitness. Unfortunately at the end of that SL tour, Lara broke his arm in an on-field collision while taking a quick single which delayed his ascent. But from 2003 onwards till the end of his career, he was more or less as consistent as he was at the start of his career.

On both sides of this 4.5 year low, Lara averaged nearly 60. Ironically, his most iconic series performance (Aus 1999) came right in the middle of low time.

When fit, and in proper frame of mind, Lara was a fabulous player to watch. I loved watching him against great attacks in Test match cricket. Because, just like Viv Richards, he had a huge ego and wouldn't hestitate to lock horns with express fast bowlers in Test match cricket right from the get-go..

 

[honestbharani]

Gayle was making huge runs in Lara's big South Africa Series in 2003 iirc, he made like 400 runs too that series No? yhe narrative makes sense pre Gayle.

I didn't realize one series means the entire period of 2002-2007? Your point defeats itself.

 

[Johan]

I didn't realize one series means the entire period of 2002-2007? Your point defeats itself.

he made runs in 2002 and 2005 too though, has 3k runs from 2002-2006 while averaging 41, clearly he had some skill

 

[honestbharani]

he made runs in 2002 and 2005 too though, has 3k runs from 2002-2006 while averaging 41, clearly he had some skill

I wonder what that is when you remove the minnows though. And only series where Lara played.


Coz you can use whatever numbers you think of, the facts remain Lara carried Windies batting on his own pretty much all through his career.

 

[Prince EWS]

I wonder what that is when you remove the minnows though. And only series where Lara played.


Coz you can use whatever numbers you think of, the facts remain Lara carried Windies batting on his own pretty much all through his career.

Yeah they were the 7th or 8th best batting side in the 2000s until Lara's retirement, and the stats I posted above show that. That doesn't mean he literally had no support from no decent batsmen, but by the batting-friendly standards of the time they were just decent and they reliably had two or three spuds in the top 6 or 7 to really drag it down at all times as well.

 

[honestbharani]

Yeah they were the 7th or 8th best batting side in the 2000s until Lara's retirement, and the stats I posted above show that. That doesn't mean he literally had no support from no decent batsmen, but by the batting-friendly standards of the time they were just decent and they reliably had two or three spuds in the top 6 or 7 to really drag it down at all times as well.

Also, unlike salty, I actually watched almost every game of Lara in his career and I am pretty sure there was not a single game where anyone thought their batting had anything to it beyond Lara. Gayle made some fun runs against India in India for example which would boost his noughties average but salty (and sadly @Johan seems to have joined this joyless life club) just use the pretty numbers from their spreadsheets to spread the hateful biased drivel.

And yes, that one is for the fans.

 

[Johan]

smh, I can say Lara stood out as much as Sachin in 90s for India but it being a complete one man show is questionable to me

 

[Narayana]

smh, I can say Lara stood out as much as Sachin in 90s for India but it being a complete one man show is questionable to me

Can you tell me, how many centuries lara/sachin have after coming to crease within first 10 Overs?
Root has 12, spd Smith 10 , Kohli 5 , Williamson 17.

 

[Prince EWS]

Can you tell me, how many centuries lara/sachin have after coming to crease within first 10 Overs?
Root has 12, spd Smith 10 , Kohli 5 , Williamson 17.

Probably gonna be skewed against Tendulkar because it just wouldn't have happened to him all that often batting four with Dravid at 3.

 

[subshakerz]

smh, I can say Lara stood out as much as Sachin in 90s for India but it being a complete one man show is questionable to me

He wasn't Flower for Zimbabwe but I think it's fair to say he did carry WI to a large extent.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Lara definitely had it way harder than Tendulkar in terms of support. Dravid was great in the 90s.

 

[Johan]

Can you tell me, how many centuries lara/sachin have after coming to crease within first 10 Overs?
Root has 12, spd Smith 10 , Kohli 5 , Williamson 17.

probably not a lot, Windies openers for a long time couldn't score **** but could block, like ****roaches

 

[DrWolverine]

Hadlee for NZ
Flower for Zim
Murali for SL

These three were one man armies for their team
Not sure if I have missed anyone else