Brett Lee is Rubish!

[Eclipse]

I just get so ****ed of with Lee because he could be souch a great player.

 

[luckyeddie]

What Lee (and Australian fans) need to realise is sheer pace is not good enough against quality opposition. Bowling at 150 km isn't going to intimidate the best of the best. Tendulkar, Dravid, Laxman have proved that on this tour.

Line and length, that's what counts and that's how you get the best batsman. Brad Williams' wicket of Sachin in the 2nd innings of the 3rd test match in Melbourne was much more convincing then Bret Lee's wicket of Sachin in the 1st innings.

Intimidation is not working anymore, it's time for another strategy.

Sheer pace on its own is a limited weapon, sure, but just line and length is in itself limited. What Lee gives (gave?) to the Australian side was variation (take that any way you want it) - with McGrath and Gillespie keeping everything tight yet probing away all the time, and Shane (spit) whirling away too, batsmen were always under pressure. A quick 4 over burst of Lee tended to make 'something' happen.

In the recent series against India, the Australians were never able to build that sustained pressure apart from a couple of notable occasions - but then again, Lee was never able to generate the kind of pace which made him such a threat in his previous encounters with India.

With the no-ball problems and the general pastings around the ground, comparisons with Harmison are inevitable (noooo, don't reply to that). Lee has a choice - become a more line-and-length oriented bowler (may not be in his make-up) or get his pace back (injuries have put paid to that).

 

[Blewy]

Well, Lehmann averages 50 and Katich over 37!
I don't rate Katich as a Test-class batsman at all, and his bowling average is ridiculously deflated, but Lehmann has been most unfortunate to miss this India series, as he was in the form of his life in his last 5 or 6 games.

Not bad for a Batsman not classed as Test Class...

Katich scores over 200 Runs in the final test...

 

[luckyeddie]

Not bad for a Batsman not classed as Test Class...

Katich scores over 200 Runs in the final test...

He did fine - but let's not go overboard just yet. He would gladly roll that wicket up and take it around the world with him (just like the Newlands track).

Amazing how so many fans on here were just writing the guy off when he was first named in the side for the first test "Noooo, pick Love. He plays for my team." "Love? Clarke's better than Love because he plays for MY team.".

 

[Jono]

Sheer pace on its own is a limited weapon, sure, but just line and length is in itself limited. What Lee gives (gave?) to the Australian side was variation (take that any way you want it) - with McGrath and Gillespie keeping everything tight yet probing away all the time, and Shane (spit) whirling away too, batsmen were always under pressure. A quick 4 over burst of Lee tended to make 'something' happen.

In the recent series against India, the Australians were never able to build that sustained pressure apart from a couple of notable occasions - but then again, Lee was never able to generate the kind of pace which made him such a threat in his previous encounters with India.

With the no-ball problems and the general pastings around the ground, comparisons with Harmison are inevitable (noooo, don't reply to that). Lee has a choice - become a more line-and-length oriented bowler (may not be in his make-up) or get his pace back (injuries have put paid to that).

It tells something about a bowler when they themselves perform poorly because the other bowlers in his team aren't world class.

Yes Lee offered variation and yes he was handy a year or two ago, but many people, especially Australian fans have made him out to be something he isn't. His sudden fame should be owed to McGrath and Gillespie for their efforts on the other end of the wicket as you pointed out.

If I were to pick my perfect bowling line up for Australia in tests, Bret Lee would not be in it.

 

[Blewy]

Katich has had the benefit of what alot of the Aussie side has had in the past... He's been dropped, and now he's coming back a better player for it...
back in 1999 i think it was, he was being touted as possibly the next test captain, however a string a bad performances and bad illness struck him down, now with the help of Steve Waugh, he has turned his game around (As Waugh did with JL) and he will prove to be a very very good Test Cricketer...

 

[Bazza]

How come that never happens to England? Well it did with Butcher and Hussain but...

 

[luckyeddie]

How come that never happens to England? Well it did with Butcher and Hussain but...

Well, they tried it - several times.
The only problem was, they chose to do it with Hick and Rampers

(Richard to rebut in 5....4....3....)

 

[Tom Halsey]

they chose to do it with Hick and Rampers

Plus Hussain and Butcher. Although you are exactly right, Hick and Rampers wern't exactly succesful.

 

[Richard]

Rubbish!

By the time that happens they'll all be retired anyway, but look at the respective Test records of the 3, and it'll be clear who the better players are.

(You'll have to take your White Rose-tinted glasses off first though)

Never happen. Not in my lifetime. I'll be buried with them on.
Like I say, Test-records don't tell the whole story.
What I mentioned wasn't an expectation (so they won't both be retired before it, because it'll never happen!) it was a hypothetical situation.
Come on, England taking every catch offered them! That's just a fantasy! And so is the few decent bowlers we have not going to pieces against an Australian batting-line-up.

 

[Richard]

I don't think that anyone has disputed the fact that Lee is (was) a force to be reckoned with in ODI's.

You really are clutching at straws to try and feel better, aren't you? Losing side of the draw in the test series against India at home, skipper retired, busted at rugby, dreadful news regarding the breweries maybe having to cut beer production because of a gas shortage, Lee rubbish - now how can we feel good again? Oh yes. A bit of pommie-bashing'll do it.

(just kidding)

(just kidding about that 'just kidding' line)

Now, just when you were starting to make sense, you have to say you were kidding...

 

[Richard]

Rubbish Lehmann is a great player of spinners especilay SLA but he does not compair to Gilly as far as facing seam bowling goes.

Gilly hates the ball's that jag into him but does well with the ball leaving him and he is an awsome player of swing bowling unless it's a cracking yorker he struggels with them.

I have seen Gilly take attack's apart when everyone else is falling around him he read's swing really well possibly because he take's the ball early and has the bat speeding through the line very quickly.

Lehmann is a bit of a nicker to good seamer's though.

So that's why he's averaged nearly 70 in God knows how many seasons playing half his games on the most seam-uneven-bounce-friendly deck in The World?
Forgive me, but I must disagree.
Gilchrist does not have an especially pronounced weakness against the swinging and seaming ball, but any batsman, no matter how good, will do so eventually.
Lehmann is, IMO, far better against seam than almost any player I've ever seen.

 

[Richard]

Lee is just passing through a bad phase. Heard that his grand mother passed away

Sachin came back and bashed a huge unbeaten ton against Kenya just after his father had died if I remember correctly.

Always sad, but perhaps of no relevance. See Kallis.

See both cases, indeed.
Family death is always a great sadness and naturally our sympathies are with Shane Lee and all his family, but as I always say, once a half-decent player reaches the middle, all else disappears. That's why Sachin's been able to do all he's been able to do under seemingly such unimaginable strain.

 

[Richard]

Katich has had the benefit of what alot of the Aussie side has had in the past... He's been dropped, and now he's coming back a better player for it...
back in 1999 i think it was, he was being touted as possibly the next test captain, however a string a bad performances and bad illness struck him down, now with the help of Steve Waugh, he has turned his game around (As Waugh did with JL) and he will prove to be a very very good Test Cricketer...

How many Australian batsmen of recent times have not had this exact experience? Mark Waugh was just about the only one (107 consecutive Tests [:wow: ]). Practically everyone else came in, was dropped for a time (in some cases a long time) and returned inspired men. Can't remember what happened with Slater, but Ponting, Langer, S. Waugh, Martyn and Hayden certainly all fit the trend perfectly.

 

[Rik]

Lehmann is, IMO, far better against seam than almost any player I've ever seen.

Sachin Tendulkar and Brian Lara, both amazing players of pace and seam bowling. Ricky Ponting is up there with the very best players of seam bowling, a little dodgy against spin though.

 

[Richard]

Well, they tried it - several times.
The only problem was, they chose to do it with Hick and Rampers

(Richard to rebut in 5....4....3....)

Well, once again I've rather had a delayed response (more like 20... 19... 18... this time) but...
Ramprakash averages 37.something since 1998 in Test-cricket when you remove innings in which he batted totally out of position.
The "Butcher \ Hussain tactic" was just starting to work on 2 occasions with "Rampers" and then they had to make a big deal out of 2 bad series' against New Zealand. After both he got dropped.
Hick, however, was simply given twice as many chances as he deserved, especially in the 2000-onwards period.

 

[Richard]

Sachin Tendulkar and Brian Lara, both amazing players of pace and seam bowling. Ricky Ponting is up there with the very best players of seam bowling, a little dodgy against spin though.

I did say almost...
They're not the only ones, either - I'd add Atherton, Stewart, Cullinan, Kallis, Stephen Waugh, plenty of all-time greats or close-tos.
Lehamann, IMO, could have been up with them if he'd just managed to grab with both hands the chance that appeared in 1998\99. Who knows what that would have done to Ponting's career, though...

 

[Richard]

Except Lee was selected on "talent" basis!

I really don't know what's worse - knowing you're not there on talent, or knowing you supposedly are and are totally letting all your backers down.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Now, just when you were starting to make sense, you have to say you were kidding...

Read again...

Originally posted by luckyeddie

(just kidding)

(just kidding about that 'just kidding' line)

 

[luckyeddie]

The power of the double negative - always gets 'em.