Better combo round II. Sobers & Marshall vs Sachin and Imran

[kyear2]

9 year peak of Sachin between 1993-2002 is basically equivalent to 6 year peak of Marshall between 1983-89. Marshall has way more match winning performances (undoubtedly helped by his team mates Roberts, Garner, Holding, Walsh etc.) though he was certainly the top dog. However, he did not stand out among his peers (Hadlee and Imran who did not even have the type of support that he had) like the way you project. Sachin had to face an avalanche of ATG bowlers during his peak (so did Waugh and Lara btw).

Sachin has more going outside this peak than Marshall outside his. It is definitely close between these two no matter whom you pick.

Marshall's destructiveness is a good point in his favor but his quality in his peak is in the same ballpark as Sachin, Smith, Viv, Hadlee, Imran etc.

Among the ATG players who are rated just below Bradman, Marshall had the least longevity. The end career Marshall that I saw in 1991-92 was down on pace and was a pale shadow of his former self. He took 2 wickets in 92 WC iirc. Early retirement protected his average.

376 wickets and the only ATG who never even got a shot at minnows. Look at how Imran and Hadlee did vs SL to get an idea of how that would have aided his average.

If Bumrah hits 300 are we going to say that his longevity was too short? Or that his skill, ability and destructive powers transcended that?

 

[kyear2]

Maco is my pick for best pacer but he did not stand out among his peers between 1983-1991 whereas Sachin was the undisputed best between 1993-2002.

I'm sure there were periods, sorry, there were periods in there that Waugh and Lara was nipping at his heels if not surpassed him.

 

[kyear2]

So you now rate Viv>Marshall?? Marshall being elite for 3 more years is definitely very valuable as is the fact WSC weren't Tests, can't do them 1-0-1. They are equivalent to FC games, though good ones. Viv played 35 Tests in his peak, anyways you look at it, it's low. Yes for WSC, but I don't really award much points for it. Marshall had the better peak afaic.

It's been a long day and I'm being summoned to bed, but Christ.

This is the absolute worst argument bandied around, primarily by you, on CW.

There is no argument to suggest that the concurrent tests that were played were either higher in value or should count more towards test statistics. They were the owns more akin to fc.

The best players were in WSC. Period.

The remaining scrubs were playing dress up and cashing in vs substandard, weakened opponents, especially vs the 3 best teams of that era.

Not to add that it was the heart of Viv's peak and definely counts towards his production.

Cut it out.

 

[kyear2]

I don't rate any batter except obviously Don and Hobbs over Marshall in primary, but with all the complaints about his longevity then it also means someone like Viv or Sobers are also better, I just chose Viv out of the two to make the point, regardless Viv was elite for three more years too after surgery.

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so if you really value longevity, Viv with a higher peak, higher longevity, further ahead of peers pre-pterygium than Marshall ever was and so forth.

still, I don't think bowlers vs batters comparisons can be this one-one imo, it has to be done via comparing them with their other fellow ATGs and comparing their standing in their field instead of direct comparisons.

Hobbs also played less than 30 games in his prime, doesn't stop us from rating it.

And what he said.

 

[kyear2]

He doesn't beat Imran on secondary skill. It's at best a tie, more likely Imran is better. And that's no shame. Imran is one of greatest. Stop making it sound like it's an insult for Sobers to be second to him on one skill.

1. I disagree it was a tie, but never said he stomps Imran either.

Imran is the 2nd best all rounder ever, I've never said otherwise.

But that's not what I was saying.

I'm saying on Garry's other secondary skill, even if the comparison was close, pushes them ahead.

 

[subshakerz]

You mean when the guys who faced or watched him die off?

They aren't dying soon but it's perfectly possible that Marshall isn't seen as best pacer of all time by general cricket consensus in a decade. Heck in the ATG XI several 80s cricketers also voted McGrath.

 

[DrWolverine]

Because of social media, cricket fans in future will dissect statistics more than ever and by any metric possible, Maco will always be in the Top 3 at least. Literally the only argument against him his longevity and he played 81 Tests which is enough for many.

 

[Johan]

by the end of 2030 Viv won't be on top 15 here, Macko would be fine.