Best spinner other than Warne & Murali

[Shane Warne]

Abdul Qadir

clarrie grimmett.

 

[Dasa]

Dont start putting words into my mouth, show me where I have said India are the only country that can play spin. I dont understand why you get so excited every time someone says something about an aussie player. Dont get mad at me because Warnie has failed against India. In case you didn't get the topic of this thread, it says 'Best spinner after Murali/Warne' so no one is saying Kumble is better but some aussie fans like you react as if it is blasphemy to talk about Kumble and Warnie in the same post. Infact someone like Anil Kumble who has taken 450+ wickets and won countless test matches for his country to be considered worse than Giles, Vettori, Mcgill etc speaks volumes of the the people who visit this forum.

I don't usually agree with you, but this part of your post is spot-on.

 

[Magrat Garlick]

Is it really a surprise that while most of Kumble's scalps include DeSilva, Mahanama, Ranatunga, Tilekratne, Gurusinhe, Jaysuriya whereas most of Warnie's scalps are Vaas, Tilekratne, Chandana, Dilshan, Jaywardne, Sangakkara.

You are aware that Sangakkara and Jayawardene are the two highest averaging Sri Lankan batsmen with more than five Tests? And Tillakaratne fourth?

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

Dont start putting words into my mouth, show me where I have said India are the only country that can play spin. I dont understand why you get so excited every time someone says something about an aussie player. Dont get mad at me because Warnie has failed against India. In case you didn't get the topic of this thread, it says 'Best spinner after Murali/Warne' so no one is saying Kumble is better but some aussie fans like you react as if it is blasphemy to talk about Kumble and Warnie in the same post. Infact someone like Anil Kumble who has taken 450+ wickets and won countless test matches for his country to be considered worse than Giles, Vettori, Mcgill etc speaks volumes of the the people who visit this forum.

For a start, you will notice that I also said that Kumble was clearly better than the other bowlers mentioned in this poll, that he was a great bowler and that nobody else could reasonably be selected. The point here is that you said, quite clearly that Shane Warne is "incapable of taking wickets against good players of spin". Given that Warne has only ever really struggled against one country (and somewhat against the West Indies), the clear implication is that only that country is any good at playing spin, which is a completely ridiculous thing to say. I'm not "getting mad at you because Warne has failed against India", I am questioning why you would make such a completely ridiculous post, and what your reasoning behind it was.

My point, which you seemed to miss, was not that Kumble is "bad", far from it. The point is that Warne has clearly had a great deal of success against good players of spin on many occasions, and it appears from your astonishingly limited selections of India, pre-2000 West Indies and Sri Lanka that your criteria for "good players of spin" is precisely "teams against whom Shane Warne has struggled".

 

[Sanz]

You are aware that Sangakkara and Jayawardene are the two highest averaging Sri Lankan batsmen with more than five Tests? And Tillakaratne fourth?

And your point is ?? Does that mean they are better players of spin bowling. Their averages better than Desilva/Ranatunga etc simply because they have been playin in an era where more and more flat pitches are prepared, and there is hardly any world class bowler left in the world.

 

[tooextracool]

That's why Kumble averages better than Warnie in WI, Pakistan, Zimbabwe. Not to forget that warnie is incapable of succeeding against good players of spin.

SL are about as good players of spin as the indians are.
i most definetly dont see how averaging 34 in the WI proves that kumble is capable of bowling on pitches that dont turn, nor do i think that bowling well in pakistan proves that much either.zimbabwe, well you really are getting desperate.
and if you dont think that SA were good players of spin, given the success they had in the subcontinent in the late 90s and early 00s then you really are kidding yourself.

 

[C_C]

SL are about as good players of spin as the indians are.
i most definetly dont see how averaging 34 in the WI proves that kumble is capable of bowling on pitches that dont turn, nor do i think that bowling well in pakistan proves that much either.zimbabwe, well you really are getting desperate.
and if you dont think that SA were good players of spin, given the success they had in the subcontinent in the late 90s and early 00s then you really are kidding yourself.

Lankans are the second best at playing spin and that is pretty categoric.
They have NO ONE in their ranks who can play spin like Tendulkar, Dravid, Azhar,Sidhu, Manjrekar and Ganguly in his pomp.

Warney isnt too hot bowling on pitches that are like roads either....... on the occassions where the Aussie opening bowlers fail to make inroads, Warney struggles more often than not and ends up with pretty crappy figures.
I think he is more versatile than Kumble and more consistent the world over but without McGrath, Warney's overall performance is very similar to Kumble's.
A bit like the difference between Tendulkar and Lara.

 

[tooextracool]

Actually Warnie and Kumble were averaging almost same against Lanka throughout the 90s when Sri Lanka had great batting line up. Warnie's average got better in the 2000s when most Sri Lankan batsmen(delivs, Ranatung, Mahanama, Gurusinghe etc) retired and Warne feasted against mediocre test batsmen like Dilshan, Chandana,Vaas, Tilekratne,Dharmasena etc..

im sorry mahanama?
anybody who calls mahanama a quality test batter is seriously deuluding himself considering that he averaged in the 20s. equally, anyone who thinks that the SL batting of 93/94, when they were barely test class is better than the one now is out of his mind.

Not to forget the fact that Kumble has played on flat pitches in 1997 in SL where some 1500 runs were scored in two innings of the test match. Is it really a surprise that while most of Kumble's scalps include DeSilva, Mahanama, Ranatunga, Tilekratne, Gurusinhe, Jaysuriya whereas most of Warnie's scalps are Vaas, Tilekratne, Chandana, Dilshan, Jaywardne, Sangakkara.

and of course sangakkara averaging nearly 50 and jayawardhene averaging 57 at home are such poor players of spin arent they?

 

[C_C]

anybody who calls mahanama a quality test batter is seriously deuluding himself considering that he averaged in the 20s.

This is what happens when people dont watch matches and dont know how to use stats properly.
Tell me... what is your average gonna be like if your technique against spin is akin to Brian Lara but your technique against pace is akin to Courtney Walsh.

 

[Sanz]

im sorry mahanama?
anybody who calls mahanama a quality test batter is seriously deuluding himself considering that he averaged in the 20s. equally, anyone who thinks that the SL batting of 93/94, when they were barely test class is better than the one now is out of his mind.

Have you even watched Mahanama play ?? I said SL batting of 90s against which Warnie struggled big time and for most of the 90s Kumble averaged better than Warnie against them and it was only until 1997 series when India played SL on one of the flattest pitches I have ever seen Kumble's average went up to 33 something.

and of course sangakkara averaging nearly 50 and jayawardhene averaging 57 at home are such poor players of spin arent they?

And how does that prove that they are great players of Spin bowling or better than the SL batsmen from the 90s ?

 

[Sanz]

SL are about as good players of spin as the indians are.
i most definetly dont see how averaging 34 in the WI proves that kumble is capable of bowling on pitches that dont turn, nor do i think that bowling well in pakistan proves that much either.zimbabwe, well you really are getting desperate.

Warnie averages worse than Kumble in WI, Zimbabwe, Pakistan and no wickets in Pakistan aren't spin friendly, they do produce world class fast bowlers ??

and if you dont think that SA were good players of spin, given the success they had in the subcontinent in the late 90s and early 00s then you really are kidding yourself.

Let's see, Their success against SL -
In 93 - Murali (not much of spinner then) took 16@22, De Silva 5@16
In 2000/01 - Murali took 26 wickets@18,Jaysuriya 5@27, Chandana 11@29, Dharmasena 11@42

Against India -

In 1996/97 - Kumble 13@29.76, Kapoor 2@14.5, Joshi 8@31.75
In 1999/00 - Kumble 12@21.75, Tendulkar 3@15.66, Karthik 6@33.5

Aagainst Pak -

In 1997/98 - Mushtaq Ahmad 17@27.6, Saqlain 9@35.8

I guess you have been watching a different SA altogether or may be not watching at all.

 

[Sanz]

it appears from your astonishingly limited selections of India, pre-2000 West Indies and Sri Lanka that your criteria for "good players of spin" is precisely "teams against whom Shane Warne has struggled".

Well cricket is played by astonishing limited countries that is 10 including Zimbabwe and BD. Warnie hasn't bowled against BD and bowled against Zim in only one , He cant' bowl against Aus since he plays for them. So that leaves us with 7 teams and out of that I selected 3 teams SL, India & WI. I dont know how you can call that limited.

The current Lankan team isn't a match of the team from 90s. Their batting against spin bowling in 90s was much better than the current lot.

 

[tooextracool]

Have you even watched Mahanama play ???

yes i have many many times. to call him anything other than ordinary though would be overrating him, to even think that hes a better player of spin than jayawardhene or sangakkara would be downright stupid.
his average in SL is a nothing to write home about 35, remove the 225 which was on the flattest wicket you and i will probably ever see and it comes down by about 5 runs.

I said SL batting of 90s against which Warnie struggled big time and for most of the 90s Kumble averaged better than Warnie against them and it was only until 1997 series when India played SL on one of the flattest pitches I have ever seen Kumble's average went up to 33 something.?

err what?
SL before 96 were very very mediocre, and for you to call the SL batting side pre 96 as exceptional is quite ludicrous. not surprising,kumbles 2 best series both came in 93-94 where he took 13 and 18 wickets respectively at averages of 28 and 17. in his 2 series post 96, kumble averaged 86 and 46.50.
meanwhile warne has played 2 series post 96 and averaged 14 and 20 respectively.
so much for kumble outbowling warne against quality players of spin.

And how does that prove that they are great players of Spin bowling or better than the SL batsmen from the 90s ?

because they play on turners at home and have very successful records both at home and against india.

 

[tooextracool]

Warnie averages worse than Kumble in WI, Zimbabwe

wow kumble averages better in zimbabwe, give him medal.
considering the fact that warne outperforms kumble in SA,england, australia, NZ, SL it doesnt actually prove anything.

Pakistan and no wickets in Pakistan aren't spin friendly, they do produce world class fast bowlers ??.

umm what?
kumble averages about 2 runs less than warne in pakistan, but gee i wonder which pakistan batting side was better- the one that included anwar, sohail, ijaz, salim malik and inzy, or the one in 2004 which included taufeeq umar, imran farhat, yasir hameed, inzy, youhana and razzaq?

Let's see, Their success against SL -
In 93 - Murali (not much of spinner then) took 16@22, De Silva 5@16
In 2000/01 - Murali took 26 wickets@18,Jaysuriya 5@27, Chandana 11@29, Dharmasena 11@42

Against India -

In 1996/97 - Kumble 13@29.76, Kapoor 2@14.5, Joshi 8@31.75
In 1999/00 - Kumble 12@21.75, Tendulkar 3@15.66, Karthik 6@33.5

Aagainst Pak -

In 1997/98 - Mushtaq Ahmad 17@27.6, Saqlain 9@35.8

I guess you have been watching a different SA altogether or may be not watching at all.

well done sherlock, in manipulating those stats as though they actually prove something.
please tell me, how SA miraculously managed to win the series in SL in 93, how they won the series in pakistan in 97/98, how they won the series in india in 99/00 and drew the series in SL in 00/01.
that record believe or not is far better than any other team managed in the 90s, even steve waugh would have been absolutely overjoyed if he had managed to lead his aussie side during his tenure to such performances in the subcontinent.
and SA managed all this without any real quality spinner in their side. surely they must be poor players of spin

 

[Sanz]

yes i have many many times. to call him anything other than ordinary though would be overrating him, to even think that hes a better player of spin than jayawardhene or sangakkara would be downright stupid.
his average in SL is a nothing to write home about 35, remove the 225 which was on the flattest wicket you and i will probably ever see and it comes down by about 5 runs.

That proves that you have never watched him play. I have never said that Mahanama was a better player than Sangakkara. what I have said is the Lankan team of 90s was better at playing spin than the current team. But you have proved time and again that you have a serious problem in reading any kind of english, so I am not really surprised. Anyone who has watched Mahanama play knows that his averages suggest.

err what? SL before 96 were very very mediocre,

That's why Warnie was averaging around 40 against them before 1996.

and for you to call the SL batting side pre 96 as exceptional is quite ludicrous.

err Where have I used the word 'exceptional' said that. And can you point out the post where I specifically mentioned PRE-96 team, I have consistently mentioned team of 90s.

not surprising,kumbles 2 best series both came in 93-94 where he took 13 and 18 wickets respectively at averages of 28 and 17. in his 2 series post 96, kumble averaged 86 and 46.50.
meanwhile warne has played 2 series post 96 and averaged 14 and 20 respectively.
so much for kumble outbowling warne against quality players of spin.

Actually I now I know why you suddenly started singing PRE-96 raga. Warnie started succeeding against them after that series so they must be good. And Good that you give the exmple of the seies of 1997 where kumble averaged 86, because anyone who has watched that series would know the quality of pitches the tests were played on. Even the following series in India was no different( I was actually in India to watch that series).

because they play on turners at home and have very successful records both at home and against india.

And how many times have these batsmen faced Kumble since 1997-1998 ?? I am sure you must have watched Sangakkara, Jayawardne play Kumble in the 2000s.

 

[Sanz]

wow kumble averages better in zimbabwe, give him medal.
considering the fact that warne outperforms kumble in SA,england, australia, NZ, SL it doesnt actually prove anything.

So you once again selectively Quote Only Zimbabwe for Kumble, count every country for Warni including Australia . How about being little more truthful for once and posting the correct facts for both :-

Warnie - Aus, NZ, SA, SL, ENG
Kumble - Ind, WI, PAK, ZIM. Really so much mediocre.

umm what?
kumble averages about 2 runs less than warne in pakistan, but gee i wonder which pakistan batting side was better- the one that included anwar, sohail, ijaz, salim malik and inzy or the one in 2004 which included taufeeq umar, imran farhat, yasir hameed, inzy, youhana and razzaq?

And how many times did Warnie got Salim Malik(their best player then) got out ? Kumble clearly has had more success against Inzi, Youhana, Ijaz than Warnie has had against them. Only player in that list who Kumble had problem against was Anwar but its not like Warnie has ripped Anwar everytime he has bowled to him. Anyways a batting lineup of Inzi, Youhana, Asim Kamal, Hameed, Razzaq, Moin, Farhat isn't as bad as you are trying to protray here and they really proved it in their next tour to India.

well done sherlock, in manipulating those stats as though they actually prove something.

Not everyone is liar like you who changes averages and quotes selectively to win an argument. Please tell me where I have manipulated avg. They are what they are and openly available at CricInfo for anyone to see it. It's a fact that Kumble didn't fail in any of the home series against SA.

please tell me, how SA miraculously managed to win the series in SL in 93, how they won the series in pakistan in 97/98, how they won the series in india in 99/00 and drew the series in SL in 00/01.

How about Indian batsman failing in the series. In 2000 series Indian team scored 225, 113, 158 and 250 in four innings of the two test match. I mean how can one say that SA succeed against Kumble in that series when he actually took 12 @21 in 3 innings of the two tests he bowled ? Same is true for Pakistan series win, Pakistan were chasing 140 something to win and were all out on 92 and how does that prove that Mushy/Saqi didn't succeed against SA batting line up. As for their win against SL, how about SL batsmen scoring 168 & 119 in two innings. I mean how ridiculous one has to get to question such a simple thing.

that record believe or not is far better than any other team managed in the 90s, even steve waugh would have been absolutely overjoyed if he had managed to lead his aussie side during his tenure to such performances in the subcontinent.
and SA managed all this without any real quality spinner in their side. surely they must be poor players of spin

And when have I said that SA didn't ? Hell SA Succeeded because on all those occasions the batting side failed terribly. Anyways let me guess 1 series win in an entire decade in India by Eng, Aus, SA, NZ, WI, Zim, PAK, SL combined must have proved that Kumble is a Shyte spinner. doesn't it ?

 

[aussie]

Pakistan, good against spin ?? You must be watching a different Pakistani team then.


Suffering from Hysteria ?? We all know Kumble has not been successful away from home, but it is also a fact that Warnie has been incapable of succeeding against good players of (Ind, WI, pre 2000 SL). Also it is worth notable that Kumble's avg. against Aus is better than Warne's avg against India. So Kumble isn't as bad as it is being said on this forum.

1. Are you refering to the present Pakistan team because in the likes of Younins Khan, Inzi, Youhana & Asim Kamal i see some very good players of spin.

2. Warne incapable of succeding againtzs good players of spin , when Australia played againts the windies when in 95 & 96 when he was in top form bowling to the likes of Lara, Hooper, Chanderpaul & Adams (who for a period of the 90s was considered a good player of spin after some superb batting in India in 94) he did pretty well.

Well i saw all the hammer he got in 98 so i wont disagree. While Warne only played againts SRI pre 200 way back in 92 & wasn't established as a world class spinner so that irrelevant

3. I dont think Kumble has been touted has bad on this forum......

 

[C_C]

3. I dont think Kumble has been touted has bad on this forum......

No he hasnt.
But when people try to show McGill, Giles, Vettori etc. as better than Kumble, it is laughable...almost like trying to show that Gautam Gambhir is better than Matty Hayden.

 

[aussie]

That's why Warnie was averaging around 40 against them before 1996

well Warne wasn't even a proven spinner when he toured SRI in 92, on the DVD Shane Warne the story, present aussie commentator Goeff Lawson had said at that time ``how could Australia pick a guy like Warne`` that alone should tell you even if he wasn't successful againts a mediocre SRI side in 92 he wasn't even established has a world class spinner

 

[aussie]

And how many times did Warnie got Salim Malik(their best player then) got out ? Kumble clearly has had more success against Inzi, Youhana, Ijaz than Warnie has had against them. Only player in that list who Kumble had problem against was Anwar but its not like Warnie has ripped Anwar everytime he has bowled to him.

You sure Anwar has destroyed Warne in Test cricket, i dont think so, agreed that Kumble has had more success againts Inzi because i've seen that myself while i'm not so sure about either Kumble's & Warne record againts Ijaz because i dont remember Warne dismissin him in 99 though i researched and discovered him twice in the 95 SCG test. Kumble would have only bowled to Ijaz in 2 test in 99 did Kumble get him out???