Best current international captain

[C_C]

You made the comment that with Warne and McGrath in the team winning was easy, But I pointed out even with second string bowlers Ponting still managed to beat India in their own backyard.

OZ's batting was largely intact. And in ODIs, batting is on the premium.
Second string or not, OZ still matched IND man to man in that series on paper.
Unless you think that Sehwag is equal to Gillchrist as an ODI batsman or Martyn is equal to Laxman.

And pay attention! we are discussing TEST cricket here.

The fundamental point you are missing is that the win-loss record DOES NOT reflect how good a captain one is.
Unless you subscribe to the ridiculous notion that Ponting is a better captain than Mark Taylor or that Greg Chappell was a better captain than Bob Simpson.

 

[C_C]

f you want to say something to me then address me and make your point.

Ever heard the term 'stone deaf' ?
I think that applies to you.
Because you keep toting the same thing over and over and over again and refuse to address any counter points.
Lets see your logical and astute counter to the 'mokey with demi-Gods and clairvoyant with grannies' examples.

 

[AndrewM]

Mate, i am not being rude or intending to project that image. So my sincere apologies if thats the way you are interpreting it.

Secondly i simply think that you don't realize the depth that Australian cricket has. You comment that "even with second string bowlers" they still beat India. Australia has arguably the largest and definately the most quality to choose from in forming their squads, and indeed most of their state sides could compete with some international sides.

I agree that Ponting is a very good captain, is a good thinker and leads by example through his stellar batting. But he is a champion in a team of champions. That is the difference between he and Fleming.

 

[AndrewM]

Ever heard the term 'stone deaf' ?
I think that applies to you.
Because you keep toting the same thing over and over and over again and refuse to address any counter points.
Lets see your logical and astute counter to the 'mokey with demi-Gods and clairvoyant with grannies' examples.

The point CC is making is that you must counter argue the points that we come up with, rather than sticking to the same guns over and over again.

 

[C_C]

I agree too that Ponting is a good captain.... but using 'win-loss' record is as flawed as it gets when talkin about captaincy.

 

[AndrewM]

I agree too that Ponting is a good captain.... but using 'win-loss' record is as flawed as it gets when talkin about captaincy.

That is very true. You can't tell me that New Zealand has not improved as a unit since 1994, despite Fleming's inferior win-loss record. There is no context in comparing his and Ponting's records.

 

[Scallywag]

And pay attention! we are discussing TEST cricket here.

Have you been following this thread at all.

We are discussing Captains, not test cricket, but the captains of teams.

Go back and read the thread from the start so you understand what we are talking about.

The fundamental point you are missing is that the win-loss record DOES NOT reflect how good a captain one is.
Unless you subscribe to the ridiculous notion that Ponting is a better captain than Mark Taylor or that Greg Chappell was a better captain than Bob Simpson.

You can go on banging about that all day but it does not change the fact that I'm not talking about win loss ratios only. The reason I mentioned win loss ratios was because the reason AndrewM said Fleming was a good captain was because NZ have won more often since hes become captain. ( funny how win loss ratio was good enough for Fleming to be called a good captain) I pointed out to AndrewM that in fact NZ's win loss ratio had tappered off over the last 30 odd tests.

So I'm talking about Ponting being able to lead his team when the chips are down like in SL and when he manages to inspire the team when all of his bowlers are missing like in India in the TVS cup and how much the players in the team have immense respect for their captain and his ability to keep the team playing good cricket for the team without letting their egos upset the whole shebang.

 

[Scallywag]

The point CC is making is that you must counter argue the points that we come up with, rather than sticking to the same guns over and over again.

I do but you and CC just keep banging on about win loss ratios which is only a small part of what I have said.

 

[AndrewM]

I do but you and CC just keep banging on about win loss ratios which is only a small part of what I have said.

Ok then. Give us your main arguments and justify them with reason/ evidence.

 

[Scallywag]

Ok then. Give us your main arguments and justify them with reason/ evidence.

So I'm talking about Ponting being able to lead his team when the chips are down like in SL and when he manages to inspire the team when all of his bowlers are missing like in India in the TVS cup and how much the players in the team have immense respect for their captain and his ability to keep the team playing good cricket for the team (thats with eight demi-gods in the team ) without letting their egos upset the whole shebang.

( I have seen no evidence to suggest that Fleming is any different than any other captain )

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

( I have seen no evidence to suggest that Fleming is any different than any other captain )

Fleming did an inspired job on the tour to Australia in 2001/02. That was one of the strongest test sides ever fielded and they absolutely mauled the number two side in the world that summer 5-1, and Fleming took his side to a 0-0 drawn series and a win in the ODIs. It was a top effort. He worked out players like Martyn with his field placings, had his players at the top of their game and took it to the best in the world. Mind you, I think Australia deserved to win that series, but you can credit the drawn series to Fleming first and the weather second, more than any of New Zealand's players in their own right.

 

[JASON]

My Personal opinion is Michael Vaughan is the better Captain around ATM considering the change of fortunes of England's standing under his Captaincy. It may be just a coincidence that good players as a group have emerged at the same time for England.

I have previously heard people going on and on about Fleming , he hasn't deserved that in the past year because, when the Team was down against the Aussies, he did very little to inspire his Team (both at home and in Aus). He has also struggled badly with the bat if you leave aside the Tsunami games in NZ and the recent MCC one.

He has been a captain for a very very long time and unfortunately the team has achieved only a steady to average performance level without being able to achieve any higher in tests .(current ranking in Tests ranking 7.)

While Ponting is a great captain, the quality of players around him make it pretty easy for him and thus this mitigates against him being judged any greater !!

 

[C_C]

First, the 'australia won, ganguly failed' comment was directed to TEST cricket. Then you switch to ODI cricket right outta the blue.
Atleast, clarify before doing so, because if you notice, the discussion was progressing along test lines before that.

Second, like i said, as a rule of thumb, ego clashes are far more common in the subcontinental teams than in other teams - history is replete with such examples. Azhar/Sidhu, Kapil/Gavaskar, Imran/Miandad, Miandad/Zaheer Abbass, Akram/Younis, Atapattu/Jayasurya, Bedi/Prasanna, Mongia/rest of the team, etc etc.
Australia has had remarkable continuity so far in Ponting's tenure.
They've got practically the same side minus steve waugh and practically the same side minus Warne in ODIs- both missing due to retirement.
As such, stage is set, its already on autopilot and just a new 'observer' has come in.
Thats a far cry from Ganguly or Fleming, who've had to build the team up and work with a considerably different team than what they started with.

As such, there is very little 'motivating the youngster' factor, since OZ has very few 'youngsters' commin in the team over the past few years.
Almost all who've come in are grizzled FC vets or recycled oldies like Kaspa.

Make no mistake- Ponting is a good captain on field but there is very little off the field that he has had to deal with.
That is why as far as captaincy goes, Ganguly and Fleming are the superior overall package.
I evaluate captaincy as on-field plus off field performance and when it comes to on field, Flemmo has the edge over Ganguly/Ponting/Vaughan with the latter three more or less the same.
When it comes to off field, Ganguly has the edge over Flemmo/Ponting with Flemmo having to do a bit more than Vaughan and Vaughan having to do a bit more than Punter.
Hence i rate Flemmo, Gangs,Vaughan and Punter in descending order.

 

[AndrewM]

So I'm talking about Ponting being able to lead his team when the chips are down like in SL and when he manages to inspire the team when all of his bowlers are missing like in India in the TVS cup and how much the players in the team have immense respect for their captain and his ability to keep the team playing good cricket for the team (thats with eight demi-gods in the team ) without letting their egos upset the whole shebang.

( I have seen no evidence to suggest that Fleming is any different than any other captain )

First of all a captain by default needs to inspire the team. If he can't do this, then he should not be a captain. Brian Lara is a good example of a captain that cannot motivate his team, he is just the best player in the side.

No evidence to suggest that Fleming is any different? Do some research into New Zealand's season of 2000, starting from August, in particular the South African tour. You will see my point that New Zealand's attrition rate in that tour was astonishing. Have you heard of Brooke Walker? Probably not, he has not played since and was the number one spinner on that tour. That is why I rate Fleming ahead of Ponting, the motivation was at an all time low (as in his recount of the tour). Not even a team like Australia has ups all the time as you mentioned in Sri Lanka; that was the only real test of Ponting's captaincy ability i can recall. That's ONE test of character.

The TVS Cup is a one-day tournament, and i thought you were only arguing in test match captaincy. Never mind. Fleming had a better one-day win-ratio record for the season ending before the recent New Zealand home summer than any other team in that calendar year, including Ponting.
This is a key point: the last time we had a regular bowling attack (with Shane Bond playing, the one strike bowler we have) was mid 2003. Negotiation of resources from this period therefore in my mind demonstrated Fleming's superior captaincy ability. He also won 2 overseas one day tournaments, which they went through undefeated (Natwest Series in England with West Indies) and won the Bank Alfalah Cup against Sri Lanka and Pakistan, ironically the tour that Bond broke down.

Egos are a part of the off field management skills. Im sure all international captains have their own methods of dealing with supposed "egos". That is also what management are for. This is not a criteria for a captain, this is just part and parcel of any sports team.

 

[AndrewM]

Fleming did an inspired job on the tour to Australia in 2001/02. That was one of the strongest test sides ever fielded and they absolutely mauled the number two side in the world that summer 5-1, and Fleming took his side to a 0-0 drawn series and a win in the ODIs. It was a top effort. He worked out players like Martyn with his field placings, had his players at the top of their game and took it to the best in the world. Mind you, I think Australia deserved to win that series, but you can credit the drawn series to Fleming first and the weather second, more than any of New Zealand's players in their own right.

And that is a big point that i missed. That tour showed to the world Fleming's ability as a captain was superior than most, relating to the points that FaaipDeOiad makes.

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

In terms of off-field incidents, Ponting has had to deal with Warne's drug ban keeping him from his big retirment finale in the 2003 WC... and with regard to supporting players and bringing out their best, well Symonds was generally considered an international reject before his amazing knock to kick off the 2003 WC, and Ponting was the one who backed him in and insisted he be in the tour party.

Generally though, I don't think off-field incidents are that important in evaluating a captain's performance. Ian Chappell never dealt with off-field incidents that well, but he still stands alongside Taylor, Benaud and Simpson as Australia's greatest ever captains, and imo he and Taylor are close to the best of the lot.

 

[C_C]

Another example of Fleming's astuteness on the field - his astute field placements, bowling choices and timely caustic remarks are pretty much the biggest reason Graeme Smith bolloxed up in the first test vs NZ.

 

[deeps]

to me, a great captain can play a big role in turning a match to his teams advantage , as well as being a good captain in itself.

To me, the best captain in the world at the moment, would have to be beileve it or not, inzimam ul haq. He has a vry inexperienced team, and he's leading it extremely well. He leads from the front with his batting, and is becoming a very very good captain.

However this is only very recently, at first he was a terrible captain.

 

[AndrewM]

My Personal opinion is Michael Vaughan is the better Captain around ATM considering the change of fortunes of England's standing under his Captaincy. It may be just a coincidence that good players as a group have emerged at the same time for England.

I have previously heard people going on and on about Fleming , he hasn't deserved that in the past year because, when the Team was down against the Aussies, he did very little to inspire his Team (both at home and in Aus). He has also struggled badly with the bat if you leave aside the Tsunami games in NZ and the recent MCC one.

He has been a captain for a very very long time and unfortunately the team has achieved only a steady to average performance level without being able to achieve any higher in tests .(current ranking in Tests ranking 7.)

Fleming got New Zealand before the South African series of 2003/4 up to number 3 in the test rankings. He has since improved in the one-day arena to as high as 2 but at the expense of the test side.

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

to me, a great captain can play a big role in turning a match to his teams advantage , as well as being a good captain in itself.

To me, the best captain in the world at the moment, would have to be beileve it or not, inzimam ul haq. He has a vry inexperienced team, and he's leading it extremely well. He leads from the front with his batting, and is becoming a very very good captain.

However this is only very recently, at first he was a terrible captain.

I'd rate Inzy 4th, after Fleming, Vaughan and ponting, and ahead of Ganguly.