• Welcome to the Cricket Web forums, one of the biggest forums in the world dedicated to cricket.

    You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join the Cricket Web community today!

    If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.

All Time Sub Cont XI

Sanz

Hall of Fame Member
Beleg said:
Shoaib has amassed these figures in the days of (typically) easier batting conditions and better bats, not to mention neutral umpires. Kapil needed three overs more then Shoaib on average to get a wicket.
Better bat, Are you serious ? Which team has better batsmen today than they had in 80s ?

Poor Umpiring - Doesn't it work both ways ? Meaning If Kapil got lot of decisions in his favor(at home) then got a lot denied (away) ?

Easier Batting conditions ? Out of curiosity, did you get to watch any Ind-Pak series that was played in 1980s ?
 

silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
Sanz said:
Better bat, Are you serious ? Which team has better batsmen today than they had in 80s ?

Poor Umpiring - Doesn't it work both ways ? Meaning If Kapil got lot of decisions in his favor(at home) then got a lot denied (away) ?

Easier Batting conditions ? Out of curiosity, did you get to watch any Ind-Pak series that was played in 1980s ?

India has had a better batting line up fro 2000+ than we had in the 80's. Not even close. Australia too, I think.
 

Beleg

International Regular
Better bat, Are you serious ? Which team has better batsmen today than they had in 80s ?
Bat = the wooden thing used to hit the ball.

Easier Batting conditions ? Out of curiosity, did you get to watch any Ind-Pak series that was played in 1980s ?
I have watched highlights of certain games. Are you implying the pitches all around the world were flatter during 1979-1993 compared with 1998-2005?

Comparing Shoaib's and Kapil's sub-continental record:

Shoaib averages 26.48 in Pakistan from 21 matches at a strike-rate of 46.8.
The corresponding figures for Kapil are an average of 40.02 from 15 matches at a strike-rate of 71.7.

That's a difference of 15 and 24 in the average and strike-rate respectively. Even if I accept your assertance about pitches being more condusive during Shoaib's era [given that he has often taken wickets on pitches where pakistan had scored in excess of 400, I find this slightly ridiculous], that's still too big of a difference to be caused by anything other then a difference in quality.

In the sole match Shoaib played on the Indian soil, he took 8 wickets at an average of 14.7 and a strike-rate of 26.9.
Kapil's record in the sixty-one games he played on the Indian soil is 26.49 at a strike-rate of 55.7.

Akhtar's overall away (including India) average is 27.67 at a strike-rate of 46.6.
Kapil's overall away (including Pakistan) average is 32.85 at a strike-rate of 72.2.

Akhtar's neutral record is even better [this includes venues like Sharjah where he bowled one of the best spells I have ever seen from a Pakistani] - in 5 games he average 16.85 at a strike-rate of 36.1.

Which ever way you look at it, Akhtar is a better and more penetrative bowler. The potency of a bowler lies in the number of wicket-taking balls he bowls. This is best illustrated by the strike-rate. SJS's point about Shoaib's unorthodox line and length is true for a large part of his career. Recently though, it is clear that he has changed gears and has been focusing more and more on the traditional weapons available to a stock fast bowler. That in itself is a sign of age creeping up on him, to be honest.

But swing or seam isn't what makes Shoaib-as-we-know an excellent bowler. It is accuracy and speed coupled with a tendency to target the stumps. The difference between Kapil and Shoaib is that of between skill and natural ability, I feel. I am not saying Kapil wasn't talented - obviously he was an extremely skillful bowler, however, Shoaib is MORE talented and, importantly, has been successful in transmitting that talent to the field of play.

I am not going to enter in the debate regarding better batting line-ups. I find it to be tangential, irrelevent and taking the focus away from the real matter. Comparing across board, you'll need to compare every single batsman Kapil dismissed with Shoaib's dismissals. A general statement about the standard of batsmen is pretty much a throw-off red-herring.

Regarding Sanz's point about neutral umpires:

Kapil played 50 odd games in India with home umpires. Shoaib hasn't played a single one. I think this more then offsets the fact that Kapil had to play 50 odd with away umpires.*


* = [Under the assumption of course that a system with neutral umpires is inherently more reliable then local umpires]
 

Sanz

Hall of Fame Member
Beleg said:
Shoaib averages 26.48 in Pakistan from 21 matches at a strike-rate of 46.8.
The corresponding figures for Kapil are an average of 40.02 from 15 matches at a strike-rate of 71.7.
And obviously Kapil's performance had nothing to do with super Umpring he received in Pakistan and flattest pitches for the majority of the matches he played there ?

As for Shoaib's record In Pakistan, obviously it has nothing to with his matches against Bangladesh and a substandard NZ side.At home, He has a strike rate of 94 Vs. Australia ,83 Vs. India, 66 Vs. WI, 120 Vs. Zimbabwe (2000 team when they were good)
 

Sanz

Hall of Fame Member
Beleg said:
Dismissing Shoaib because of his tendency to get injured is idiotic. Aren't we supposed to pick a team on the actual performance of the player rather then his off-field follies and the notoriety surrounding him? It is very easy to overlook his actual quality in face of his constant injury problems but a little digging around will show that his performance (and specially strike-rate) compares with the best of his contemporaries.

Therefore, Shoaib is at least as much of a shoe-in as Kapil to the all-time great subcontinental list as long as far as pure bowling ability is concerned.
It's like saying Stuart Mcgill is as much an all time Great as Shane Warne. It's ridiculous to even suggest that. First of all you need to have played long enough to be considered an All-Time Great, that's why Vinod Kambli will be never make the list of an all time great batsman. Shoiab hasn't played long enough and isn't reliable enough to be even mentioned on the same page with the likes of KapilDev.

Kapil and Akram both played in 1988-89 series in Pak, Kapil Averaged 31.5, , Imran 38.7, Akram 30.6 (Shoaib wouldn't have lasted 4 tests)
 

Sanz

Hall of Fame Member
Beleg said:
In the sole match Shoaib played on the Indian soil, he took 8 wickets at an average of 14.7 and a strike-rate of 26.9.
If it means anything to you, In the same match Srinath took 13 wickets.
 

Run like Inzy

U19 12th Man
ODIs:
1.Jayasuriya
2.Tendulkar
3.Miandad
4.Dravid
5.Inzy
6.Sangakkara (wk)
7.Imran(c)
8.Kapil
9.Wasim
10.Waqar
11.Murali

Tests
1.Gavaskar
2.Hanif
3.Tendulkar
4.Miandad
5.Inzy/Dravid
6.Sangakkara (wk)
7.Imran
8.Kapil
9.Wasim
10.Waqar
11.Murali

Pretty similar expect the inclusion of slower openers for the test team, and no Jayasuriya in the team. Small dilemma - Inzy or Dravid - both class players, being an Inzy fanatic i couldnt leave him out!
 

silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
Run like Inzy said:
Tests
1.Gavaskar
2.Hanif
3.Tendulkar
4.Miandad
5.Inzy/Dravid
6.Sangakkara (wk)
7.Imran
8.Kapil
9.Wasim
10.Waqar
11.Murali
Dravid IMO is better than Miandad and should go at #3, followed by #4 Inzamam and #5 Tendulkar. I would probably not have Kapil in the test team (I'd have him in the ODI for sure).
 

Anil

Hall of Fame Member
Sanz said:
It's like saying Stuart Mcgill is as much an all time Great as Shane Warne. It's ridiculous to even suggest that. First of all you need to have played long enough to be considered an All-Time Great, that's why Vinod Kambli will be never make the list of an all time great batsman. Shoiab hasn't played long enough and isn't reliable enough to be even mentioned on the same page with the likes of KapilDev.
excellent point!
 

deeps

International 12th Man
silentstriker said:
First you say:



And then you say:



...
lol, read the first sentence properly "but as YOU said.... batting doesn't matter"

I didnt say it, although reading that aain, it makes it seem like i'm agreeing with that statement.

I think the batting is seen as a 'bonus'. In that if i have two bowlers, bowler A and bowler B, who i think are both at the same level, THEN i look into the batting. If bowler A is > than bowler B, then i will go with bowler A unless bowler B's batting FAR outweighs bowler A's batting

Hope that makes sense
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
Anil said:
kapil will not be in subcontinental elevens necessarily just as a bowler, he was a world class allrounder, remember?
He was a good all rounder, but Imran was far better and with one in there, you surely then want the superior bowlers rather than another one who is being picked partly on batting?
 

Dasa

International Vice-Captain
marc71178 said:
He was a good all rounder, but Imran was far better and with one in there, you surely then want the superior bowlers rather than another one who is being picked partly on batting?
Imran if he's to bat up the order, Kapil for a lower-order batsman. The difference in their bowling at ODI level is negligible whereas Kapil was a much better lower-order hitter.
 

Hugh

School Boy/Girl Cricketer
marc71178 said:
He was a good all rounder, but Imran was far better and with one in there, you surely then want the superior bowlers rather than another one who is being picked partly on batting?
The problem with picking Imran is that he was seldom good at both departments simultaneously, kind of beats the purpose of playing him as an all-rounder. He was a great bowler, broke down, and then became a decent batsman.
 

FRAZ

International Captain
Hugh said:
The problem with picking Imran is that he was seldom good at both departments simultaneously, kind of beats the purpose of playing him as an all-rounder. He was a great bowler, broke down, and then became a decent batsman.
Prove it .
 

Hugh

School Boy/Girl Cricketer
FRAZ said:
Prove it .
He averages 37 overall in 88 tests with the bat. His batting average after the injury, approximately in his last 40-45 matches is 51. Work out his average before the shin injury.
 

FRAZ

International Captain
Hugh said:
He averages 37 overall in 88 tests with the bat. His batting average after the injury, approximately in his last 40-45 matches is 51. Work out his average before the shin injury.
Every player when starts always have a lower average and if you want to say that his bowling was not up to the level or wa not needed for the team then it is a rubbish .
Do you even know how many tests did Kapil play . I am not saying that Kapil is any better than Imran or what is Imran .
Put a data of first ten of Kapil and Imran's tests and then put a data of last 31 tests by Imran and Kapil please . Cuz I want to see the difference ............
 

Hugh

School Boy/Girl Cricketer
FRAZ said:
Every player when starts always have a lower average and if you want to say that his bowling was not up to the level or wa not needed for the team then it is a rubbish .
Do you even know how many tests did Kapil play . I am not saying that Kapil is any better than Imran or what is Imran .
Put a data of first ten of Kapil and Imran's tests and then put a data of last 31 tests by Imran and Kapil please . Cuz I want to see the difference ............
I agree players do improve, but the main reason Imran improved so tremendously as a batsman was his injury more than anything. He couldn't bowl very long spells, and thus began concentrating on his batting, the results of which are plainly visible. A batting average of 20 something in the first half of his career and 51 in the second cannot just be explained away by natural progression, there was definitely a transition.

As for the first 10 and last 31 tests, you can go ahead. Its plainly obvious to everyone that Kapil played on far too long, and were it not for Hadlee's 432, he would have, or rather should have retired much earlier.
 

FRAZ

International Captain
Hugh said:
I agree players do improve, but the main reason Imran improved so tremendously as a batsman was his injury more than anything. He couldn't bowl very long spells, and thus began concentrating on his batting, the results of which are plainly visible. A batting average of 20 something in the first half of his career and 51 in the second cannot just be explained away by natural progression, there was definitely a transition.

As for the first 10 and last 31 tests, you can go ahead. Its plainly obvious to everyone that Kapil played on far too long, and were it not for Hadlee's 432, he would have, or rather should have retired much earlier.
Stats?
 

FRAZ

International Captain
Hugh said:
Thats the third time in an hour you've demanded others do the work. Why not spend some time yourself ?
Nope you are crying about and writing stupid one liners after each reply I have made . So make a case present the stats and then discuss . Because you said Imran was not a good bowler and was an average batsman before he got injured and then he did this and did that . I want to see a graph and stats ?? do your job . Do not write one liners here and do not just walk away . Present the records . And make the records available here to base your assumption .You said some thing and I need a proof. You are right may be but I do not believe in stupid fairy tales and I believe in facts and figures please. Present em and do not just walk away after writing one liners like a school kid . I am quite impressed with this story that Imran was not a good bowler .Prove it by stats . Draw a line make two headers Imrtan and Kapil and write down their test by test records and prove that Imran did not take the wickets at a better average than Kapil ??? Prove it ?
Stats>?
 
Last edited:

Top