All Rounders Poll - Discussion

[Qlder]

Maybe lower your parameters. Jack Gregory, for example, only took 85 wickets.

They weren't my parameters. L&L mentioned his criteria and cricinfo has a ready made 1000 runs / 100 wkt list so I just used that to point out many players left that met his criteria

 

[Fuller Pilch]

They weren't my parameters. L&L mentioned his criteria and cricinfo has a ready made 1000 runs / 100 wkt list so I just used that to point out many players left that met his criteria

Apologies.
Got ya

 

[Coronis]

subs is openly just trolling.

 

[Line and Length]

I note that Mike Procter has been featuring in recent voting. He certainly had an outstanding FC career as an all rounder and, in limited Tests (7) he impressed with the ball. However, in 10 visits to the crease in Test cricket he never reached a 50. Perhaps he doesn't really have the credentials to be considered a top TEST all rounder.

 

[capt_Luffy]

As anticipated, finding genuine Test all rounders beyond a certain stage becomes difficult.
Looking at some of the more recent nominations (eg Greg Chappell) it becomes ridiculous that someone like Walter Hammond has been overlooked by so many (including me). We've reached the stage where it would be somewhat farcical if Hammond were to be ranked so low (outside the top 20) so it is perhaps better if he were to miss out completely.

I have applied certain criteria when voting (apart from 2 occasions). I look for a minimum of 10 Tests (sorry Procter), a batting average > 25 (apologies Davidson) and a WPM figure > 2 (bad luck Mushtaq). Having mentioned Mushtaq, I admit he has had my votes previously as I had not checked his WPM (1.39). The other getting a nod from me was Kallis.

Of the 12 players who cropped up in the last round without earning a spot, only 3 (Rhodes, Flintoff and Abdul Razaaq) qualify when applying my criteria. I don't intend changing my selection mode but I must point out that everyone involved in this poll has their own methodology and it isn't my intention to persuade them to change.

I generally vote for genuine allrounders ahead of borderline ones in an all-rounder rankings, so for eg, I will go with Kapil>Hadlee as an all-rounder, though the latter is better in primary alone. A.k.a, I vote for the one who has a good balance between both the skills and not just the better player. So all it points to is, I don't think Hammond missing top 20 is a wrongful snub. In fact I will vote for him shortly.

 

[subshakerz]

I note that Mike Procter has been featuring in recent voting. He certainly had an outstanding FC career as an all rounder and, in limited Tests (7) he impressed with the ball. However, in 10 visits to the crease in Test cricket he never reached a 50. Perhaps he doesn't really have the credentials to be considered a top TEST all rounder.

According to someone here he is an ATG.

 

[Cricket Bliss]

You always ignore the 80s context.

Imran was 30 runs an innings in terms of output for a lower order bat. A regular middle order 80s bat like Mike Gatting was 31 per innings. Imran was perfectly fine in terms of output for a 6/7.


Kallis did minnow bashing and once you remove that, his output simply does not remotely match Sobers/Imran level and he doesn't deserve to be put there. As Kimber pointed out, he was reluctant in that role as his career progressed which you dock Miller for.

As for his role, it was reduced as his career progressed to him being a part time bowler by the end.

Kallis vs all teams except Zimbabwe and Bangladesh
Tests - 154 wkts - 254 ave - 35.38 WPM - 1.64

Kallis averages 29.3 in England, 30 at home and 31 in West Indies
till 2003 at peak Kallis averaged 26 in England , 28 at home and 19 in West Indies

is England or the West Indian batting minnow?
moreover at peak Kallis ranked number 6 at bowling

not comparing but Imran at peak only ranked 15 with the bat... you might say there might be more batsmen than bowlers..but imran also played in an era where there were less teams...absense of South Africa and minnow Sri Lanka whereas during Kallis era even Heath Streak from Zimbabwe was a test class bowler by a good margin
records against minnow will not count but when you fail against even minnows.. that does count... Imran failed against Sri Lanka
(If ODI innings (not relevant here) like Kapil 175* against Zimbabwe does count..then failing against minnows does count)
the most underrated thing in this forum is you hatred towards Kallis mate

 

[Bolo.]

As anticipated, finding genuine Test all rounders beyond a certain stage becomes difficult.
Looking at some of the more recent nominations (eg Greg Chappell) it becomes ridiculous that someone like Walter Hammond has been overlooked by so many (including me). We've reached the stage where it would be somewhat farcical if Hammond were to be ranked so low (outside the top 20) so it is perhaps better if he were to miss out completely.

I have applied certain criteria when voting (apart from 2 occasions). I look for a minimum of 10 Tests (sorry Procter), a batting average > 25 (apologies Davidson) and a WPM figure > 2 (bad luck Mushtaq). Having mentioned Mushtaq, I admit he has had my votes previously as I had not checked his WPM (1.39). The other getting a nod from me was Kallis.

Of the 12 players who cropped up in the last round without earning a spot, only 3 (Rhodes, Flintoff and Abdul Razaaq) qualify when applying my criteria. I don't intend changing my selection mode but I must point out that everyone involved in this poll has their own methodology and it isn't my intention to persuade them to change.

I gave up on voting for Hammond early on for this reason. Fine by me though. I don't really class him as an AR anyway. Just a bat whose bowling was good enough to have a notable impact on my assessment of him.

Ashwin and Hadlee (who I put in a similar category to Hammond) probably get spanked by some places in the ranking for this reason too. They would be placing higher if we were ranking the best players from a pool.

 

[Cricket Bliss]

Moreover batting down the order is generally when batting becomes easier and bowling as 4th is mostly when bowling becomes difficult.. @subshakerz

 

[subshakerz]

Kallis vs all teams except Zimbabwe and Bangladesh
Tests - 154 wkts - 254 ave - 35.38 WPM - 1.64

That is not test standard.

Kallis averages 29.3 in England, 30 at home and 31 in West Indies
till 2003 at peak Kallis averaged 26 in England , 28 at home and 19 in West Indies

is England or the West Indian batting minnow?

All balanced with him being pretty useless in the SC.

Check Imran's batting averages across countries.

not comparing but Imran at peak only ranked 15 with the bat... you might say there might be more batsmen than bowlers..but imran also played in an era where there were less teams...

The point is not comparing peaks but overall output and it's not close as a far as secondary disciplines go. Kallis the bowler is overrated.

 

[Cricket Bliss]

That is not test standard.


All balanced with him being pretty useless in the SC.

Check Imran's batting averages across countries.


The point is not comparing peaks but overall output and it's not close as a far as secondary disciplines go. Kallis the bowler is overrated.

first you said he only bashed minnows, and now you are saying his good performances dosent count as he did not suceed in SC...
then is Sehwag's SC heroics a useless because he failed everywhere outside the SC despite being his primary and only discipline?
Then Imran's batting is also useless since he failed against the best bowling (WI) and the worst bowling of his era.

That is not test standard.


All balanced with him being pretty useless in the SC.

Check Imran's batting averages across countries.


The point is not comparing peaks but overall output and it's not close as a far as secondary disciplines go. Kallis the bowler is overrated.

peak does come into picture wile comparing overall or else you should never say Imran averaging 40 in the 1980s or so..just take his overall career..

Moreover ive seen you saying Kallis and Sanga both gauged against minnow a multiple times...
apart from SRL and ENG Kallis is extremely succesfull everywhere... even in the Sub Continent...
India - Mat - 9 Inns - 15, Runs - 760 @ 58.46 , 3 100s
Pakistan - Mat - 5 Inns - 9 Runs - 582 @ 83.14, 3 100s
Sri Lanka - Mat - 5 Inns - 10 Runs - 318 @ 35.33
Gulf - Mat - 4 Inns - 7 Runs - 335 @ 55.83, 2 100s

overall in Asia Mat - 23 Inns - 41 Runs - 1995@57.00 ,8 100s
and dont come up with the statement that he was liability in the team....a liability wont win 23 MOM...and no one give MOM for making a winning match draw ...

 

[subshakerz]

first you said he only bashed minnows, and now you are saying his good performances dosent count as he did not suceed in SC...
then is Sehwag's SC heroics a useless because he failed everywhere outside the SC despite being his primary and only discipline?
Then Imran's batting is also useless since he failed against the best bowling (WI) and the worst bowling of his era.

I never said he only did well against minnows I argued that minnows boosted his bowling stats. But if you give some countries he did well it is offset by other he didn't take 1 WPM.

Moreover ive seen you saying Kallis and Sanga both gauged against minnow a multiple times...
apart from SRL and ENG Kallis is extremely succesfull everywhere... even in the Sub Continent...
India - Mat - 9 Inns - 15, Runs - 760 @ 58.46 , 3 100s
Pakistan - Mat - 5 Inns - 9 Runs - 582 @ 83.14, 3 100s
Sri Lanka - Mat - 5 Inns - 10 Runs - 318 @ 35.33
Gulf - Mat - 4 Inns - 7 Runs - 335 @ 55.83, 2 100s

overall in Asia Mat - 23 Inns - 41 Runs - 1995@57.00 ,8 100s
and dont come up with the statement that he was liability in the team....a liability wont win 23 MOM...and no one give MOM for making a winning match draw ...

You are switching between Kallis the bat and bowler.

 

[Cricket Bliss]

I never said he only did well against minnows I argued that minnows boosted his bowling stats. But if you give some countries he did well it is offset by other he didn't take 1 WPM.

then i guess the same offset applies to sehwag as a pure bat and imran at west indies and sri lanka..
moreover youll also have to consider that batting lower is when batting becomes easier and bowling lower is when bowling becomes difficult

I never said he only did well against minnows I argued that minnows boosted his bowling stats. But if you give some countries he did well it is offset by other he didn't take 1 WPM.


You are switching between Kallis the bat and bowler.

all rounder includes both...we are not comparing just secondary disciple...
moreover i mentioned that you say kallis and sanga only gauged against minnows..

 

[subshakerz]

then i guess the same offset applies to sehwag as a pure bat and imran at west indies and sri lanka..
moreover youll also have to consider that batting lower is when batting becomes easier and bowling lower is when bowling becomes difficult

Sure it's a problem for Sehwag as well.

And I don't rate Imran as good as a middle order. He is literally bare minimum lower order specialist standard. Kallis is not test standard overall since he couldn't sustain the load like Sobers did.

all rounder includes both...we are not comparing just secondary disciple...
moreover i mentioned that you say kallis and sanga only gauged against minnows..

Imran's peak blows away any other player aside from Bradman. Kallis is impressive in peak though his bowling peak was more early career before his batting peaked.

 

[Qlder]

@Cricket Bliss and @subshakerz clogging up this thread when neither are voting in the allrounder poll that this thread is to discuss (subs is voting but trolling part-timers since top 10)

 

[Line and Length]

@Cricket Bliss and @subshakerz clogging up this thread when neither are voting in the allrounder poll that this thread is to discuss (subs is voting but trolling part-timers since top 10)

And much of what they post is irrelevant to the poll. @Cricket Bliss What has Sehwag got to do with an all rounder poll?

 

[subshakerz]

@Cricket Bliss and @subshakerz clogging up this thread when neither are voting in the allrounder poll that this thread is to discuss (subs is voting but trolling part-timers since top 10)

I have been debating ARs since the beginning. Sorry are the rules that we can't debate ARs not being voted on in the current poll? Is so I will desist.

 

[capt_Luffy]

I have been debating ARs since the beginning. Sorry are the rules that we can't debate ARs not being voted on in the current poll? Is so I will desist.

I won't say it's a rule, but it's counter intuitive to debate here what you do everywhere else well, especially if you don't care enough to vote seriously.

 

[subshakerz]

I won't say it's a rule, but it's counter intuitive to debate here what you do everywhere else well, especially if you don't care enough to vote seriously.

Fair. I will desist unless it's a current option being debated.

 

[sayon basak]

Vettori
Marshall
Warne

Pretty sure it's a way of protesting against how vague the term "All rounder" is.