All-rounder XI vs Specialist XI

[subshakerz]

Knott was a very good batsman too.

For a keeper, yes. But not enough to justify a place in the side like Flower or Gilchrist.

 

[subshakerz]

Ya, ARs take this. They are significantly weaker in the openers and 6, but 7-11 more than covers it.

No ATG spinner, but lots of spin options and lots of styles. I'd rather one Murali/Warne than all of them, but there are gonna be a lot of conditions where the extra variety/numbers win out.

Specialists are going to battle with only 4 bowlers against a lineup that strong on a batting deck. To thumb-suck a figure, lets say they will strike at 66 on average against a lineup this strong. 105 overs per innings to bowl a team out (with some allowance for runouts). They are frequently blasting out the opposition, which means you are frequently asking them to bowl 35-40+ overs per innings each. It's too much. Performances will nosedive.

This exercise would probably have a different result if it wasn't engineered to favour the ARs. But as is, they win.

Yeah I see fatigue setting in the Specialist XI if they bowl on a batting deck, and then the all-round lower order Gilchrist onwards exploiting that.

I would actually not have Ashwin unless its a spinning deck, and keep Faulkner as spinner with Miller/Imran/Hadlee/Wasim as a potent pace attack.

 

[Burgey]

Sobers probably would make the specialist XI as a batsman, but his position is not beyond dispute.

He averaged 58 in 90+ tests over 20 years and was also the best fieldsman in the world (if that's a factor comparing him with some others in contention), leaving aside his bowling and captaincy.

I mean, come on. He walks into an AT side as a batsman alone. To suggest otherwise is ludicrous.

 

[mr_mister]

There's also the fact he's easily the most accomplished at 6, if someone say preferred a middle order of Hammond/Lara/Sachin/Viv etc

 

[Everton Seymour]

All Rounder XI :

1.Bob Simpson (C)
2.Vinoo Mankad
3.Walter Hammond
4.Jacques Kallis
5.Garry Sobers
6.Keith Miller
7.AB De Villiers (WK)
8.Imran Khan
9.Shaun Pollock
10.Ravi Ashwin
11.Wasim Akram

 

[Bolo.]

Yeah I see fatigue setting in the Specialist XI if they bowl on a batting deck, and then the all-round lower order Gilchrist onwards exploiting that.

I would actually not have Ashwin unless its a spinning deck, and keep Faulkner as spinner with Miller/Imran/Hadlee/Wasim as a potent pace attack.

Ya, fair. Still have Faulkner/Sobers/Simpson as spinners.

Could throw Procter into the mix as well to pump the spin options. The selection criteria don't mention test, and if Ashwin isn't playing, an offie would be very handy.

To me though, the purpose of the exercise is to create a single all-conditions team. If the specialists know the game is happening on a burner, they will just field Murali, Barnes, and Warne (and/or Tiger), and obliterate the ARs.

 

[Bolo.]

He averaged 58 in 90+ tests over 20 years and was also the best fieldsman in the world (if that's a factor comparing him with some others in contention), leaving aside his bowling and captaincy.

I mean, come on. He walks into an AT side as a batsman alone. To suggest otherwise is ludicrous.

I would stick him into an ATG XI if he didn't bowl.

But there is no bat other than Bradman who is a lock. His 58 average is not an outlier, and it was pumped by playing in an era of mediocre bowlers and friendly home pitches.

 

[Burgey]

Faulkner/Sobers/Simpson as spinners.

Well, the AR side is going to get pretty tired tbf if those blokes are bowling any number of overs to Bradman et al.

 

[Bolo.]

Well, the AR side is going to get pretty tired tbf if those blokes are bowling any number of overs to Bradman et al.

The exercise was designed to give the ARs a chance. Specifically excluding Bradman, and allowing guys who really weren't ARs (like Akram and Simpson) into the AR team.

The 5th bowler in the OP is Goddard, who averages almost the same as Warne, and midway between Murali and Warne away. He functions as pseudo-spinner in terms of getting through overs fast and his ability to bowl limitless numbers of overs.

The mentioned spinners are between the 6th and 10th best bowlers in the team. They are only getting more than a few overs if the pitch is wearing (in which case you can pick who is bowling into the rough due to variety), or on a burner.

 

[Burgey]

Yeah but they're going to be defending around 200 tops every dig against the other outfit anyway. So it's probably a moot point, but not for the reasons you think it will be.

 

[Bolo.]

Yeah but they're going to be defending around 200 tops every dig against the other outfit anyway. So it's probably a moot point, but not for the reasons you think it will be.

You are getting into PFK 'Dev is better cos I say he is better' territory with this post.

 

[Burgey]

Not really, a specialist XI is better at their selected skill in every position save for Gilchrist for the ARs who was a great but under rated keeper in his own right.

So you choose Imran for example in the AR XI which is fair enough. Are you choosing Imran the excellent bowler or Imran the excellent batsman? Because those two things did not coincide during his career, as great a player as he was.

 

[Red]

All

He averaged 58 in 90+ tests over 20 years and was also the best fieldsman in the world (if that's a factor comparing him with some others in contention), leaving aside his bowling and captaincy.

I mean, come on. He walks into an AT side as a batsman alone. To suggest otherwise is ludicrous.

100% correct. He's the second batsman picked in any AT time even disregarding his bowling.

 

[Red]

Just to alleviate my Mon night boredom, I'm saying an all rounder has to average over 30 with the bat to qualify for the AR ATG XI. A batsman has to have taken zero wickets in his career to be a specialist. A keeper in the specialist XI has to average under 25 with the bat and a bowler under 15. Anyone in the AR XI (beside the keeper) has to have taken at least two wickets per test. Think this criteria squares things up a little.

Specialists

Gordon Greenidge
Bill Lawry
Kumar Sangakkara
Brian Lara
Virat Kohli
Inzamam Ul Haq
Bert Oldfield +
Dale Steyn
Curtly Ambrose
Bill OReilly
Glenn McGrath

All Rounders

Wilfred Rhodes
Vinoo Mankad
Jaques Kallis
Garry Sobers
Shakib Al Hasan
Keith Miller
Adam Gilchrist +
Ian Botham
Imran Khan
Kapil Dev
Shaun Pollock

 

[Fuller Pilch]

All Rounder XI :

1.Bob Simpson (C)
2.Vinoo Mankad
3.Walter Hammond
4.Jacques Kallis
5.Garry Sobers
6.Keith Miller
7.AB De Villiers (WK)
8.Imran Khan
9.Shaun Pollock
10.Ravi Ashwin
11.Wasim Akram

Why no Hadlee? He's a better bowler than all in your team.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

All

100% correct. He's the second batsman picked in any AT time even disregarding his bowling.

Yeah, 2nd or 3rd (with Hobbs)

 

[Everton Seymour]

Why no Hadlee? He's a better bowler than all in your team.
[/QUOTE
I prefer Pollock over Hadlee

 

[subshakerz]

Not really, a specialist XI is better at their selected skill in every position save for Gilchrist for the ARs who was a great but under rated keeper in his own right.

So you choose Imran for example in the AR XI which is fair enough. Are you choosing Imran the excellent bowler or Imran the excellent batsman? Because those two things did not coincide during his career, as great a player as he was.

Imran the ATG bowler and mid-30s batsman.

 

[AndrewB]

Just to alleviate my Mon night boredom, I'm saying an all rounder has to average over 30 with the bat to qualify for the AR ATG XI. A batsman has to have taken zero wickets in his career to be a specialist. A keeper in the specialist XI has to average under 25 with the bat and a bowler under 15. Anyone in the AR XI (beside the keeper) has to have taken at least two wickets per test. Think this criteria squares things up a little.

Specialists

Gordon Greenidge
Bill Lawry
Kumar Sangakkara
Brian Lara
Virat Kohli
Inzamam Ul Haq
Bert Oldfield +
Dale Steyn
Curtly Ambrose
Bill OReilly
Glenn McGrath

All Rounders

Wilfred Rhodes
Vinoo Mankad
Jaques Kallis
Garry Sobers
Shakib Al Hasan
Keith Miller
Adam Gilchrist +
Ian Botham
Imran Khan
Kapil Dev
Shaun Pollock

2+ wickets per Test rules out Kallis - maybe Faulkner could take his place?

 

[Fuller Pilch]

2+ wickets per Test rules out Kallis - maybe Faulkner could take his place?

It would be good to have a leg spinner too.