Shane Warne vs Dale Steyn

[subshakerz]

So you're essentially ignoring your own definition and then just rating him on primary skill excellence?

My definition wasnt to rate all factors equally.

 

[subshakerz]

After thinking, My number one is Bradman, two is Sobers, three is Hadlee, four is probably Hobbs or Imran, then probably Marshall/McGrath/Barnes, then probably Sachin or Viv

Lol you just said Viv is ahead of Imran.

 

[Johan]

Lol you just said Viv is ahead of Imran.

I didn't actually mean it lol, but I don't really go greatest Cricketers list so it is hard for me to visualise everything.

 

[subshakerz]

You might not rate older players in your specialist lists, but they do demand a spot in the "greatest" cricketers list.

Well I have Bradman and Hobbs there.

 

[subshakerz]

I didn't actually mean it lol, but I don't really go greatest Cricketers list so it is hard for me to visualise everything.

If I just did 'best cricketers', it would be fairly different.

 

[smash84]

My definition wasnt to rate all factors equally.

I am really not seeing any factors other than batting though.

 

[subshakerz]

I am really not seeing any factors other than batting though.

Peer/pundit rep

 

[smash84]

Peer/pundit rep

So the peers agreed he was the best since Bradman?

Maybe I don't understand your definition of greatness. Or maybe you yourself don't?

 

[Coronis]

Sachin was a prodigy as a teen. It's almost impossible to think of a teen bat coming and doing what he did.

And he is benchmark as far as longevity of cricket goes.

Meh.

Sachin before he was 18 11 matches 16 innings 588 @ 39.20 1 ton 4 fifties
Mushtaq before he was 18 7 matches 11 innings 380 @ 38.00 1 ton 2 fifties

 

[Johan]

Meh.

Sachin before he was 18 11 matches 16 innings 588 @ 39.20 1 ton 4 fifties
Mushtaq before he was 18 7 matches 11 innings 380 @ 38.00 1 ton 2 fifties

cooked

 

[Coronis]

cooked

Some other notable teen prodigies - Miandad, Pollock, Harvey

 

[Bolo.]

Yeah given that Warne was aces in SL and wouldn't have McGrath and Gillespie to compete with, I back Warne to do it.


Ambrose has no real great samples outside of WI, Eng and Aus in terms of wickettaking. There is a questionmark how he would do in SC for me.

Regardless, you are making a cardinal error, you are confusing overall stats with stats inside countries. Murali may be higher SR overall but that entirely due to spin friendliness at home, he is far lower than Warne away from home. I am just for arguments sake making them the same but realistically Warne was more penetrative.


I mean if you insist, yes McGrath has a health SR, average, WPM and ER. Steyn is poor on ER, Ambrose slightly middling on SR and WPM which are more serious issues.

There is a massive difference between Murali's away WPI and any other bowler, even including their home records, but ignoring his. Warne gets beaten by several others. Make whatever assumptions you want, but the test performances don't support them. But if you think he got really screwed by the team he played for and would have bettered Murali, how can you not rank him above the quicks? You have made hundreds of posts about how taking a bunch of wickets per game is paramount.

I meant wickets, not SR. Murali is a bit better overall, and Warne a bit better away, but they both get beaten by a bunch of others- wickets are what put them ahead.

Ambrose and Mcgrath have almost identical SRs and WPI. Mcgrath has a better WPM because his team always made the opponents bat twice. For someone sticking Ambose almost dead in a Goldilocks zone, you have made a whole lot effort to claim the contrary over many, many posts.

 

[h_hurricane]

What did Sachin expand?? He played for along time and made tons of runs. I'll give him that. Imran Literally helped pioneer a new type of pace bowling and was the first great out and out fast bowler from Asia. Hadlee is NZs literal only atg cricketer and kept them relevant as a cricketing nation. Oh and Imran led his country to WC glory.

Not debating on your order of cricketers as it is respectable, but this is a lazy way of looking at things. Sachin's numbers have diminished to what they are, only because of his longevity. In other words, with lesser longevity, his averages are much greater. If he still managed to score more runs than any batsman ever, even after cutting off his early years and the late years, it is fair to rate him on those years alone, when he averaged close to 60.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

Not sure if Subs gives LOI's any weightage, but if he does, Sachin being greater than Imran is explainable.

I give odis absolutely no weightage because in that case we'll exclude the likes of Hobbs, Hutton etc.

 

[subshakerz]

Meh.

Sachin before he was 18 11 matches 16 innings 588 @ 39.20 1 ton 4 fifties
Mushtaq before he was 18 7 matches 11 innings 380 @ 38.00 1 ton 2 fifties

Did I argue anything on averages?

 

[Sliferxxxx]

Yes I grant Imran all that. Lol you don't need to sell me on Imran. I'm usually the one doing that.

There are a few other X factors with Tendulkar. But I am swayed at him being, aside from a god like Bradman, the most skilled at his specialisation IMO than any other cricketer.

How? If he were the most skilled barring Bradman, he'd be distinctly above the chasing pack but he isn't. He doesn't have any monster series runs wise. Even allowing for the lack of long series, every one of his contemporaries has one. He has zero atg series vs atg attack. He has great ones vs Steyn, McGrath, Murali etc but nothing on the level of Viv Australia 1980 or Lara Australia 1999 or Steve Waugh WI 1995 or Smith India 2017 etc.

 

[Johan]

if we're going by primary, Bradman is the greatest, Hobbs is the second greatest, and everyone else is fighting each other as you can't touch those two.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

Sachin was a prodigy as a teen. It's almost impossible to think of a teen bat coming and doing what he did.

And he is benchmark as far as longevity of cricket goes.

Being a prodigy is nice and all and yes he's the benchmark for longevity for batting but there's much much more to cricket than batting.

 

[subshakerz]

There is a massive difference between Murali's away WPI and any other bowler, even including their home records, but ignoring his. Warne gets beaten by several others. Make whatever assumptions you want, but the test performances don't support them. But if you think he got really screwed by the team he played for and would have bettered Murali, how can you not rank him above the quicks? You have made hundreds of posts about how taking a bunch of wickets per game is paramount.

I rate Warne as a bowler behind Marshall, McGrath, Hadlee, Steyn and Imran as they were accomplished in varied conditions away with his limitations.

Murali away averaged 27 with a 60SR. Warne is simply better away.

Ambrose and Mcgrath have almost identical SRs and WPI. Mcgrath has a better WPM because his team always made the opponents bat twice. For someone sticking Ambose almost dead in a Goldilocks zone, you have made a whole lot effort to claim the contrary over many, many posts.

No McGrath has notable advantages in SR and WPM despite having to share more wickets.

My contention against Ambrose again is based on his lack of success outside Eng, WI and Aus.

 

[subshakerz]

Being a prodigy is nice and all and yes he's the benchmark for longevity for batting but there's much much more to cricket than batting.

Sure like bowling.