Cummins/Smith vs Lillee/Chappell vs Warne/Ponting

[Johan]

He had reasons outside cricket I think for that display but it wasn't a good series.

Walsh doesn't take 4WPM at home and sucks in Aus where played the most away.

I think Cummins needs another good Eng or SC series to seal his case but I watched both and think Cummins is just a more reliable wickettaker.

I think Cummins's input is better but his away output doesn't quite match Walsh yet, and I don't think a home WPM conparison is very good too as post Sandpaper gate, Cummins has some extremely spicy home wickets to bowl on, spicier than ones people like Lillee/Trueman/Steyn did I'd argue.

 

[subshakerz]

I think Cummins's input is better but his away output doesn't quite match Walsh yet, and I don't think a home WPM conparison is very good too as post Sandpaper gate, Cummins has some extremely spicy home wickets to bowl on, spicier than ones people like Lillee/Trueman/Steyn did I'd argue.

Steyn definitely had easier home wickets but I agree. However, I still give credit to Cummins since he isn't a new ball bowler but maintains that output.

 

[sayon basak]

Simply more penetrative with sufficient display outside home in Eng, SA and Pak to show he isn't just a home bully. I would wait until he gets 300 though before declaring him definitely better.

Pretty sure he's done.

 

[subshakerz]

Pretty sure he's done.

Yeah seems to have lost a step sadly. Hope not.

 

[Coronis]

Steyn definitely had easier home wickets but I agree. However, I still give credit to Cummins since he isn't a new ball bowler but maintains that output.

Cummins with the new ball 144 @ 22.33 in 61 innings (2.36 WPI)
Cummins without the new ball 150 @ 22.54 in 64 innings (2.34 WPI)

Notably both 10’fers came when he wasn’t opening the bowling.

 

[Coronis]

Pretty sure he's done.

Is he? Since the last Ashes

12 matches 55 @ 20.53

Only issue is 10 of those matches have been at home, 2 in NZ where averaged 28. West Indies performance was very poor.

Hoping this India series is a sign of good things to come.

 

[Qlder]

Don't agree really. Think Cummins is better at home and Lillee was mid in WI as well, so not placing him much ahead based on that away record.

Do you not know Lillee played only one test in West Indies where he needed constant medical attention to stay on the field. This is the Test he broke his back and it was thought he'd never play cricket again. I don't see how that makes "Lillee was mid in WI"

 

[capt_Luffy]

Do you not know Lillee played only one test in West Indies where he needed constant medical attention to stay on the field. This is the Test he broke his back and it was thought he'd never play cricket again. I don't see how that makes "Lillee was mid in WI"

Was talking more on his WSC record there is clearly worse than in Australia.

 

[Qlder]

Was talking more on his WSC record there is clearly worse than in Australia.

That's funny since Lillee was clearly the stand out best bowler in WSC

 

[capt_Luffy]

That's funny since Lillee was clearly the stand out best bowler in WSC

That's funny since nothing there was standout to Holding, Garner, Roberts and Imran

 

[DrWolverine]

 

[Sliferxxxx]

He had reasons outside cricket I think for that display but it wasn't a good series.

Walsh doesn't take 4WPM at home and sucks in Aus where played the most away.

I think Cummins needs another good Eng or SC series to seal his case but I watched both and think Cummins is just a more reliable wickettaker.

Why do you keep bringing up this wpm stuff as you say without context? I don't think Walsh is better than Pat but consider Walsh's circumstances. 2nd change bowler bowling into the wind and bowling in an attack often times with 2 or 3 other class bowlers. And before you say Pat played with class, Haze and Starc donot compare to Marshall and Ambrose. He also started off bowling in an era of more draws where matches weren't started early or extended to make up for lost time.

And sucking in Australia? Really? Literally every bowler has that one place where they suck having played a decent amount of tests there (we agreed to 5 tests).

 

[Qlder]

That's funny since nothing there was standout to Holding and Roberts

Really? Lillee took more wkts than anyone in WSC, 67 wkts in 14 Supertests (4.8 wpm). Roberts took 50 wkts in 13 (3.8 wm) and Holding 35 wkts in 9 (3.9 wpm). An extra wkt per match above the next best sounds like a standout to me?

 

[DrWolverine]

Literally every bowler has that one place where they suck having played a decent amount of tests there (we agreed to 5 tests).

or a mediocre record compared to elsewhere

True

 

[Sliferxxxx]

View attachment 46097

Lillee stands out as usual because of his high wicket hauls. But then again, he played with far less class competition than Roberts and co.

 

[DrWolverine]

Lillee stands out as usual because of his high wicket hauls. But then again, he played with far less class competition than Roberts and co.

Who was regarded as the best bowler in WSC?

 

[capt_Luffy]

Really? Lillee took more wkts than anyone in WSC, 67 wkts in 14 Supertests (4.8 wpm). Roberts took 50 wkts in 13 (3.8 wm) and Holding 35 wkts in 9 (3.9 wpm). An extra wkt per match above the next best sounds like a standout to me?

All the WI pacers averaged lower than Lillee, all of Holding, Garner, Roberts and even Croft was pretty good. They just bowled in a more competitive setting. Another one who was Great there was Imran Khan. And the SA pacers Procter and Le Roux averaged sub 15.

 

[subshakerz]

Why do you keep bringing up this wpm stuff as you say without context? I don't think Walsh is better than Pat but consider Walsh's circumstances. 2nd change bowler bowling into the wind and bowling in an attack often times with 2 or 3 other class bowlers. And before you say Pat played with class, Haze and Starc donot compare to Marshall and Ambrose. He also started off bowling in an era of more draws where matches weren't started early or extended to make up for lost time.

And sucking in Australia? Really? Literally every bowler has that one place where they suck having played a decent amount of tests there (we agreed to 5 tests).

Once again you want to debate me when we fundamentally agree.

- Cummins is 1st change and likely moreso in his career than Walsh didn't have the new ball

- More draws? I mean ok but even then that didnt stop others from having more than 4WPM at home.

- I bring out Australia because they were his strongest opposition, he played away the most there and never had a great series there. Deal with it.

 

[subshakerz]

That's funny since Lillee was clearly the stand out best bowler in WSC

Lillee did pretty well in the WSC series in WI. 23 wickets in 5 tests @28.

 

[Johan]

personally rate Freddie's efforts in West Indies higher than Lillee's