Curtly Ambrose vs Sunil Gavaskar

[kyear2]

Outside of Marshall, Hadlee, McGrath and Steyn; Donald has a good argument against everyone else imo

By that argument, that applies to Steyn as well.

Except for the fact that Steyn was best in his era, as was Ambrose, which just happened to be Donald's as well.

 

[kyear2]

I don't think WI were particularly bad for quicks- some cracking pitches plus some with a bit of juice. More that RSA was particularly good.

ARG was a road, Guyana was slow and spun, no assistance to the pacers. As far as Ambrose was concerned it too was a road.

Trinidad was uneven, but slow

 

[kyear2]

They never will – Murali’s 800 is iconic, essentially his brand, and was even the title of his movie! They won’t take that away now.

Which makes the lack of consistency regarding those 1970 and 1971/72 series’ all the more frustrating.

Exactly this

 

[subshakerz]

averages lower despite having far less spicy wickets

Dude a 55 SR is quite high especially if that is your home record. That's more of a liability than a higher average. And it's not like his pitches were complete roads. If you look at his home career, he had odd stretches when his wickettaking just went down.

 

[Johan]

Dude a 55 SR is quite high. That's more of a liability than a higher average. And it's not like his pitches were complete roads. If you look at his home career, he had odd stretches when his wickettaking just went down.

give Ambrose SA like home pitches and both the average and SR will shoot down by enough that him vs Donald at home just won't be close.

 

[subshakerz]

give Ambrose SA like home pitches and both the average and SR will shoot down by enough that him vs Donald at home just won't be close.

Maybe but I doubt it will be Donald level. When Ambrose toured SA in 98 he had a very high SR and was outbowled that series by Walsh, Pollock and Donald.

 

[Johan]

Maybe but I doubt it will be Donald level. When Ambrose toured SA in 98 he had a very high SR and was outbowled that series by Walsh, Pollock and Donald.

He had a bad game at Kingsmead sure, but he only got to tour during a low point in his career, if he played his entire career on the grassy, fast, inconsistent bouncy South African wickets he'd indeed tear it up.

 

[DrWolverine]

How is Ambrose’s record better at home than Donald’s record at home?

Ambrose
52 matches. 203 wickets.
Avg of 21.20. SR of 55.79.
11 5-Fer

Donald
38 matches. 177 wickets.
Avg of 21.64. SR of 45.
12 5-Fer

averages lower despite having far less spicy wickets

Less than 4WPM
Less strike rate
Less 5-Fer despite playing 14 more Tests

 

[ataraxia]

Its cool actually. A lot of the big records fall just short of those pretty numbers which kinda makes them more special.

99.94
19/90
49
974

**** you Lara for runing it with 400*

I hope Bumrah ends up with a 20.01 average.

Lara's 501 is probably the worst in that regard. Run out for 499, etc.

 

[Johan]

Less than 4WPM
Less strike rate
Less 5-Fer despite playing 14 more Tests

Ambrose had a couple bad serieses at home at the start of his career, one his literal debut series against Pakistan and one where he was ill and shouldn't have played.

Of the bowlers, only Curtly Ambrose, tired and ill for a time, did not measure up to expectations.

otherwise he averaged 19 at home with a respectable SR and a 4.24 WPM. Ambrose's numbers at home without his debut series and the series where he was ill.

45 matches, 191 wkts @ 19.1, 52 strike rate, 11 5fers and 2 10fers

and that's without having pace bowling paradises like Donald had. comparing SA to WI pitches is like comparing bowling spin in India to bowling spin in England.

 

[DrWolverine]

Muttiah Muralitharan ending with 799 wickets would have been as iconic as Don Bradman’s 99.94

 

[subshakerz]

He had a bad game at Kingsmead sure, but he only got to tour during a low point in his career, if he played his entire career on the grassy, fast, inconsistent bouncy South African wickets he'd indeed tear it up.

Ok but if he struggled with wickets at reduced pace in mid career onwards then I don't think he will end up at Donalds home numbers. Though certainly better than in WI true.

 

[subshakerz]

Muttiah Muralitharan ending with 799 wickets would have been as iconic as Don Bradman’s 99.94

Would have sucked.

 

[Bolo.]

Maybe but I doubt it will be Donald level. When Ambrose toured SA in 98 he had a very high SR and was outbowled that series by Walsh, Pollock and Donald.

And Kallis

He had a bad game at Kingsmead sure, but he only got to tour during a low point in his career, if he played his entire career on the grassy, fast, inconsistent bouncy South African wickets he'd indeed tear it up.

That low point in his career saw him taking 30 wickets @14 in his previous series.

But yes, if he'd played a whole career in RSA, he would almost certainly have ended with some great stats. Probably something reasonably comparable to Donald IMO.

 

[subshakerz]

Ambrose had a couple bad serieses at home at the start of his career, one his literal debut series against Pakistan and one where he was ill and shouldn't have played.

Not just then.

Ind 89, Pak 93, Aus 95, Ind 97 and a few other low yield series.

 

[DrWolverine]

Regardless of where they played, they would have ended up with similar numbers - Ambrose with better average & ER and Donald with better strike rate and WPM.

Their bowling styles were vastly different - Donald was looking forward to attack and get wickets even if he leaked runs similar to Steyn. Ambrose was similar to McGrath in a few ways - Very difficult to score runs against but not cunning enough to get wickets.

 

[Coronis]

Regardless of where they played, they would have ended up with similar numbers - Ambrose with better average & ER and Donald with better strike rate and WPM.

Their bowling styles were vastly different - Donald was looking forward to attack and get wickets even if he leaked runs similar to Steyn. Ambrose was similar to McGrath in a few ways - Very difficult to score runs against but not cunning enough to get wickets.

Yes McGrath and Ambrose are not known for getting wickets

 

[DrWolverine]

Yes McGrath and Ambrose are not known for getting wickets

I should have phrased it better.

Ambrose was similar to McGrath but unlike him he did not pressurise enough to take wickets

 

[subshakerz]

I should have phrased it better.

Ambrose was similar to McGrath but unlike him he did not pressurise enough to take wickets

McGrath was simply a more skilled and intelligent bowler than Ambrose. The only thing similar is that they are generally corridor bowler with height. But McGrath read the batsman, adjust his length if necessary, could bowl cutters and even occasional swing.

 

[DrWolverine]

WPM
Steyn : 4.72
Donald : 4.58
McGrath : 4.32
Ambrose : 4.13

Strike rate
Steyn : 42.3
Donald : 47.0
McGrath : 51.9
Ambrose : 54.5

Even while watching them bowl, there was a difference.

Steyn and Donald were aggressive and all out attacking bowlers who didn’t mind going to runs if there was a chance to get wickets.
Ambrose was more of a “lazy” bowler at times when it came to taking wickets but perhaps the toughest to score runs against