Viv Richards & Allan Donald vs Brian Lara & Curtly Ambrose

[PlayerComparisons]

Waugh was voted in at #19 last year which seems pretty reasonable to me even with his lower batting position

2024 Ranking of Batsmen Poll

As long as we get 10 or more voters we will continue. 12 voters this round and 14 nominations. 12 - McCabe, Lawry; 8 - Pietersen, Cowdrey; 6 - Gower; 5 - Hazare; 4 - MaCartney, Morris, Yousuf; 3 - Paynter; 2 - Hassett, Donnelly; 1 - Ponsford, Ranjitsinhji. McCabe and Lawry share 55th spot by...

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[Johan]

Younis beat De Villiers? lmao

 

[subshakerz]

should've been good enough to make runs in the top 4 then

instead he went to top 4 and made 448 @ 34.4

on top, his output (minus minnows) is less than Clive Lloyd and AB De Villiers, two bonafide NON ATGs, who also played at 5 and 6.

He played a grand total of 15 innings in the top 4 lol.

He played at no.5 in a fairly strong lineup because that is where he was expected to perform a certain role, basically he took the position once Border was leaving. There was no question he was the best bat just where he was best used. Folks here can't seem to wrap their heads around that, Waugh at no.5 helped Australia the most.

And quoting their RPIs to me is as relevant as saying Smith has a better RPI than Viv. There is no such thing as standardized RPI for ATGs so you don't need to make it up.

 

[subshakerz]

That just means you aren't that great against fresher bowlers.

Do you think that is the reason Border batted down the order?

 

[capt_Luffy]

Do you think that is the reason Border batted down the order?

Yesn't. Certainly batting lower is easier.

 

[sayon basak]

Younis beat De Villiers? lmao

Younis is overrated here, and tbf Graeme Smith beating ABD is much worse.

 

[subshakerz]

Yesn't. Certainly batting lower is easier.

So Border hid himself down the order. Got it.

 

[subshakerz]

Like it's pretty easy to understand why Waugh has less RPI compared to other ATGs. Literally less time to bat, less proper bats to partner with and more chance of declarations or innings finishing.

 

[capt_Luffy]

So Border hid himself down the order. Got it.

Border batted at 3 and 4 very often as well and had similar output of runs. But in general, as a rule of thumb, batting at 6 with a low RPI/high average is worse than at 3 with average-RPI being around the same albeit AVG slightly lower than before. You staying not out isn't helping your team more than the runs you left on board.

 

[Johan]

He played a grand total of 15 innings in the top 4 lol.

He played at no.5 in a fairly strong lineup because that is where he was expected to perform a certain role, basically he took the position once Border was leaving. There was no question he was the best bat just where he was best used. Folks here can't seem to wrap their heads around that, Waugh at no.5 helped Australia the most.

And quoting their RPIs to me is as relevant as saying Smith has a better RPI than Viv. There is no such thing as standardized RPI for ATGs so you don't need to make it up.

Waugh at number 5 and 6 helped Australia the most because that's the only spots that he found success at, there is a reason people like Ponting and Chappell are rated above Waugh and Border when it comes to batsmenship when the latter two have more quality runs, quantity matters, atleast Border is proven in the top 4, Waugh doesn't even have that, he doesn't even make 40 runs an inning when it comes to batting against non-minnows.

you compare it to the ATGs, Sachin and Root make 46 without minnows, Viv 47 with WSC included, Hammond 48 I think, Waugh's output is actually closer to Stokes than it is to Sachin and that's absolutely crazy.

Smith and Viv are on the same level, so Smith having a (barely) higher RPI doesn't bother me, if Lloyd had higher RPI than Viv then Yeah, I'd take problem with that

 

[capt_Luffy]

Like it's pretty easy to understand why Waugh has less RPI compared to other ATGs. Literally less time to bat, less proper bats to partner with and more chance of declarations or innings finishing.

Exactly. Most of those could be addressed just by moving up. Again, if you are your team's best, then you leaving runs on the ground ain't certainly helping them.

 

[subshakerz]

Waugh at number 5 and 6 helped Australia the most because that's the only spots that he found success at, there is a reason people like Ponting and Chappell are rated above Waugh and Border when it comes to batsmenship when the latter two have more quality runs, quantity matters, atleast Border is proven in the top 4, Waugh doesn't even have that, he doesn't even make 40 runs an inning when it comes to batting against non-minnows.

Disagree. Ponting and Chappell are rated higher based on their aggressive style and yes facing the new bowlers more, not for output. And 15 innings, many in early days, isn't enough to describe Waugh being forced at no.5

Smith and Viv are on the same level, so Smith having a (barely) higher RPI doesn't bother me, if Lloyd had higher RPI than Viv then Yeah, I'd take problem with that

Lara is 5 points higher than Viv on RPI, FYI.

 

[subshakerz]

Border batted at 3 and 4 very often as well and had similar output of runs. But in general, as a rule of thumb, batting at 6 with a low RPI/high average is worse than at 3 with average-RPI being around the same albeit AVG slightly lower than before. You staying not out isn't helping your team more than the runs you left on board.

Does batting as opener with higher RPI make you automatically superior to a no.4 with lower RPI?

 

[Johan]

Disagree. Ponting and Chappell are rated higher based on their aggressive style and yes facing the new bowlers more, not for output. And 15 innings, many in early days, isn't enough to describe Waugh being forced at no.5

Again, I'm simply not going to ne fawning over your output when you actual average is like 47 and RPI is straight up less than Chanderpaul, it's a negative.

Lara is 5 points higher than Viv on RPI, FYI.

1. nobody has ever questioned Lara's output, it's the quality that's questioned.

2. We both know the issue with Lara's output style IE consistency.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Does batting as opener with higher RPI make you automatically superior to a no.4 with lower RPI?

Everything else the same, yes. Which practically it never is.

 

[subshakerz]

Exactly. Most of those could be addressed just by moving up. Again, if you are your team's best, then you leaving runs on the ground ain't certainly helping them.

Did you watch Waugh play? The reason he was there is because Australia already had decent bats up the order and Waugh was so skilled at shoring the innings and playing with the tail.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Did you watch Waugh play? The reason he was there is because Australia already had decent bats up the order and Waugh was so skilled at shoring the innings and playing with the tail.

Early 90s Australia wasn't that Great batting side really. And as usual, despite everything, batting lower is just easier and low RPI just means you are scoring less runs.

 

[subshakerz]

Again, I'm simply not going to ne fawning over your output when you actual average is like 47 and RPI is straight up less than Chanderpaul, it's a negative.

Again context. Stronger batting order, more declaration and easier chases, less chances for bigger scores.

1. nobody has ever questioned Lara's output, it's the quality that's questioned.

2. We both know the issue with Lara's output style IE consistency.

Um, so the others get called superior over Waugh for RPI but Lara can't be called superior to Viv despite a 5pt advantage?

 

[Johan]

Again context. Stronger batting order, more declaration and easier chases, less chances for bigger scores.

93-98 before Ponting and Hayden came good, Australia wasn't exactly a batting monster really, and again, De Villiers had a monster batting too, if anything it helped him.

Um, so the others get called superior over Waugh for RPI but Lara can't be called superior to Viv despite a 5pt advantage?

when did I call Lloyd superior to Waugh?

 

[subshakerz]

Early 90s Australia wasn't that Great batting side really. And as usual, despite everything, batting lower is just easier and low RPI just means you are scoring less runs.

He was mid 90s and they had Slater, Taylor, M Waugh, Boon by then. Quite a good order. And it just got stronger as he became captain.

Anyone who saw Waugh in the 90s knows he wasn't scoring easy runs.